Requesting Feedback: Seeking Guidance for Successful First-Time Pond Build

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250 gal per Koi, they get big and if your not carefull feeding them they can create a huge bio load.

And therein lies to problem... there literally is no one "correct" answer to "how many koi can I have in my pond"? With that formula, you would keep 4 big koi in a 1000 gallon pond - to me, that's three fish too many.

Water volume is just one piece of the equation. How much filtration do you have? Surface area is important. How often are you willing to clean filters? Test water? How well do you understand the water chemistry balance? Even YOUR lifestyle is important - a DKP isn't something you can walk away from and go on vacation for a few weeks. You'd need a pond sitter.

People with a dedicated koi pond (DKP) frequently overstock, but they also have massive filtration and maintain filters on a strict schedule. But, to me, the worst case scenario is what you should plan for - what if the power goes out? Pump malfunctions? Plumbing fails in the middle of January... will your fish be able to survive? It's a sad day when you are hauling out big, beautiful, dead fish.
 
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250 gal per Koi, they get big and if your not carefull feeding them they can create a huge bio load.
250 is way off Koi have no stomach they are poop machines if too much goes in others are pushed out regardless if it's digested or not
 
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Appreciate all the input; I now realize there are more variables in the fish decision than I found in my initial casual research.

I'm leaning toward starting with a few goldfish and see how it goes for a few years. At this point I'm still ironing out the pond size & structure so once I get the build done and have a more accurate volume calculation I'll come back to the Koi/goldfish/how many, etc questions.


My next steps are to finalize the shape:

Here's what I'm thinking:
  • remove the short wall at the top of the brick patio to be replaced with stone
  • expand pond into raised bed
Wider Pond  (1).jpg


I think I can build a retaining wall extending out of the water with just 2 or 3 boulders. The top of the raised bed is ~24" from the top of the first shelf and I have multiple rocks in the 24" range. Here's my plan:
  • expand the pond into the raised bed and make a shelf that extends ~8" below water level
  • have the liner extend up over the edge of the raised bed
  • place 2 or 3 aqua blue boulders on the top shelf that extend higher than the top of the bed
    • no stacked rocks - individual stones extending from the water to a few inches above the raised bed (or modify the raised bed to fit the rocks if need be)
  • for edging: fold over the liner and backfill with gravel/mulch ensuring runoff flows down sides of bed and not into the pond
This will make a wall of stone that extends out of the water and serves as a retaining wall for the bed. This will be just to the left of the main viewing area and the pine tree will be right next to it.
wider pond - granite wall.jpg


Once the shape is established I have a few days of digging to complete!

Next big problem to deal with: building shelves in sandy soil!!

A few thousand years ago my lot was part of Lake Michigan; ~a foot under the topsoil is mostly sand and rock. Anyone with experience building shelves that maintain their form in sandy soil (or other tips for working in sandy soil) please let me know about your experience.
 
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Something I wish someone had said to us: lay the liner _loosely_. Make sure nothing is stretching it as the rocks go onto it.

We ended up with at least one eventual tear in a place where the rocks stretched the liner and one day it let go in that tight spot....
 

YShahar

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Appreciate all the input; I now realize there are more variables in the fish decision than I found in my initial casual research.

Here's my plan:
  • expand the pond into the raised bed and make a shelf that extends ~8" below water level

If there were my project, given the slightly oriental character of the garden, I would make the pond larger in all directions, and include as long a stream as possible. I'd also want the pond to come up to the edge of the wooden deck (and if possible, even extend a ways underneath it). The skimmer could be hidden under the deck, where it would be well camouflaged. This also puts the skimmer at the opposite end of the pond from the water inlet, which is the ideal configuration.

So I'd go with something like this:

Wider Pond remodel copy.jpg


  • have the liner extend up over the edge of the raised bed
  • place 2 or 3 aqua blue boulders on the top shelf that extend higher than the top of the bed
    • no stacked rocks - individual stones extending from the water to a few inches above the raised bed (or modify the raised bed to fit the rocks if need be)
You can make your rocks go farther still if you layer them one behind the other, as seen from your viewing area, but with gaps between them. The gaps can be filled with river rock, so the who area looks as if it's been periodically flooded.

  • for edging: fold over the liner and backfill with gravel/mulch ensuring runoff flows down sides of bed and not into the pond

You may also want to include some flat rocks standing some ways back from the pond, set so that their tops are higher than the raised bed, this will effectively keep soil from the beds from flowing into the pond. It will also make the pond look like it's been carved out of rock into a low spot.
A few thousand years ago my lot was part of Lake Michigan; ~a foot under the topsoil is mostly sand and rock. Anyone with experience building shelves that maintain their form in sandy soil (or other tips for working in sandy soil) please let me know about your experience.

I had a similar problem, except that my "soil" was gravel and rock, rather than sand. It wouldn't hold a shape, so building conventional selves was out.

What I did was to over dig the whole area, creating more or less the shape I wanted, with more or less the correct depths. Then I laid the underlayment and liner (it was 65 mil roofing material, so very, very heavy!). Then, starting from the deepest point, I started laying my first row of rock. Once I had this row stable, I pulled back the liner and underlayment and scooped the loose gravel "soil" up against the back of the underlayment/liner combo to near the top of the first row of rocks. The rocks on the inside of the liner held up the loose gravel. Next, I put the liner back on top of the shelf thus created, and lay the next row of rocks some 20 cm or so back from the first one.

Thus, I built up the shelves using the rocks inside the pond as walls to hold the soil in place. In your case, you may have an easier job of building like this, as the sandy soil should hold its shape (especially if you wet it) a bit better than my piles of gravel did.

If you have old bricks or concrete pavers lying around, those can also be helpful in making your shelves. Just be sure to grind any sharp edges off them with an angle grinder so they won't make holes in your liner.

Cheers!

-Yael
 
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Thanks for all the great advice. I'm back from my trip and back to work.

I finished digging out the shelves.

@YShahar thanks for the thoughtful diagram; you inspired me to expand the pond out a bit. There is a cement slab under the deck so digging under it isn't feasible, and I wanted to leave room for a tree or two on the right and a path to the bog filter area where I'll be installing a deck or patio for a viewing area.

here's where I'm at:

PXL_20230718_234417304.jpg


Shelves w height.jpg


@CometKeith thanks for the suggestion of going down to 42" - I was going to go to 36" and try to use a 20' x 20' liner but would have been tight. Purchased a 25' x 25' which will accommodate the 42" depth and allow some wiggle room and give me enough extra to avoid any tight spots. @GreenAsJade I'm heeding your advice as the problem you experienced sounds like a nightmare.

I might remove part of the 12" shelf on the right (which will lead to the skimmer) to widen out the deep zone a little bit.

Next steps:
  • make final tweaks to pond shape
  • clean out roots/rocks
  • build up edge & grade
    • ensure all edges are >= 3" above water line
    • grade soil down from pond to route runoff away from pond
  • dig out skimmer hole
  • install underlayment & liner

thanks again for all the advice and please keep it coming!
 
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I definitely want to run my pond all winter; any tips or best practices for building a waterfall that works well in the winter?

Have you had issues with areas of the pond failing due to freezing? I worry about areas that won't have current (bog filter cleanout, etc) that could contain trapped water that freezes and causes issues.
I run my pond filters/pump all year long, I have a portable pond heater so if it stays cold long enough for a few inches of ice to cover over the pond I’ll plug it in and set it near the intake pump. Waterfall has never totally frozen over. The pond is basically 30” deep and we have a cave built in where the fish stay during the winter. I don’t have the bog to worry about. I also have a backup aerator that I can plug in that helps the water keep moving, it’s also good to have backup aerator “just in case”, there’s other problems you might run into. You’re looking good, I do have koi in the pond along with Shubunkin, comets, goldfish. I had to reduce the population because of the birth rate was higher than expected, I didn’t expect any, I now just use the formula of so many inches of fish for the size of the pond.
 

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The liner & underlayment arrived today and there is rain in the forecast so I put it in place. Getting the 25x25 45mil in place by myself was quite the wrestling match. I'm excited to start rocking!

The liner has alot of folds and whatnot - seems unavoidable given the shape of the pond. hope that doesn't cause any issue. Tried to make sure there is slack all over to avoid stretching.
PXL_20230719_192918804.jpg
 

j.w

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The liner & underlayment arrived today and there is rain in the forecast so I put it in place. Getting the 25x25 45mil in place by myself was quite the wrestling match. I'm excited to start rocking!

The liner has alot of folds and whatnot - seems unavoidable given the shape of the pond. hope that doesn't cause any issue. Tried to make sure there is slack all over to avoid stretching. View attachment 159245
While you fill it get in there and start at the bottom and slowly work out as many wrinkle/folds as you can. You can stop and restart water as you do this. Take your time!
Keep excess liner attached, don't cut it unless you really need to in spots. The more you can save and just fold under or whatever for any future adjustments due to settling etc. the better. Try to adjust the liner edges so there is about the same amount of the extra on all sides.
 
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YOU CAN REMOVE A LOT OF THOSE WRINKLES BY MAKING OTHER BIGGER. take a main wrinkle lift it up and pull other wrinkles under the larger one . when your done place gorilla duct tape to hold them in place work your way around and when your happy or relatively start filling BUT REMOVE THE DUCT TAP BEFORE THE WATER GETS TO IT the glue can separate and stay on the liner.
 

YShahar

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What @j.w and @GBBUDD said...

Also, I would suggest that once you have all the wrinkles worked out to your satisfaction, check that the liner isn't overly stretched anywhere.

Lastly, I would also lay underlayment inside the liner as well as under it. That will not only protect the liner from rocks on top of the liner and birds and animal claws, but it also gives another place for beneficial bacteria to grow. Once the underlayment gets covered with algae, it will look like rock.
 
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And therein lies to problem... there literally is no one "correct" answer to "how many koi can I have in my pond"? With that formula, you would keep 4 big koi in a 1000 gallon pond - to me, that's three fish too many.

Water volume is just one piece of the equation. How much filtration do you have? Surface area is important. How often are you willing to clean filters? Test water? How well do you understand the water chemistry balance? Even YOUR lifestyle is important - a DKP isn't something you can walk away from and go on vacation for a few weeks. You'd need a pond sitter.

People with a dedicated koi pond (DKP) frequently overstock, but they also have massive filtration and maintain filters on a strict schedule. But, to me, the worst case scenario is what you should plan for - what if the power goes out? Pump malfunctions? Plumbing fails in the middle of January... will your fish be able to survive? It's a sad day when you are hauling out big, beautiful, dead fish.
Exactly, filtration and water quality dictates
 
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We have about 4000 gallons in total in our system and we have one koi. We used to have a dozen more but a winter plumbing disaster cost us all but one of them. I will never put koi in a garden pond again. it was a terrible feeling. Every single goldfish we had in the pond during that time survived with flying colors.

Having said that - the "standard" wisdom is often 1000 gallons for the first koi, 250 for each additional. But check this chart and you'll see what the issue is - just compare the amount of waste produced by four 5 inch fish with just one 20 inch fish. Same "inches of fish" (which is another rule of thumb that gets bantered about) but the amount of waste produced is many many MANY times greater by the 20 inch koi. Would you rather have one or two big fish or dozens and dozens of small, multicolored goldfish?

Nice, very informative link, thanks
 
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I would also lay underlayment inside the liner as well as under it. That will not only protect the liner from rocks on top of the liner and birds and animal claws, but it also gives another place for beneficial bacteria to grow. Once the underlayment gets covered with algae, it will look like rock.
Alright - I'm going to do this. A tear in my liner once I have all my heavy rocks in place is my worst nightmare.

I formed the foundation of my pond building knowledge from youtube: Kev from Ozponds, Brian from Aquascape & Eric aka the Pond Digger have amazing instructional videos (big thank you to those guys). I don't believe I've ever seen them add underlayment on top of the liner but it makes sense. The gravel I'll be laying down is very round but there are trace amounts of other things in there from the quarry & delivery truck which may be sharp.


Any downside to adding underlayment on top that anyone is aware of?


I'm leaning towards this 6oz underlayment: seems like a good price and will be here in a few days:

1690032397927.png
 
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Alright - I'm going to do this. A tear in my liner once I have all my heavy rocks in place is my worst nightmare.

I formed the foundation of my pond building knowledge from youtube: Kev from Ozponds, Brian from Aquascape & Eric aka the Pond Digger have amazing instructional videos (big thank you to those guys). I don't believe I've ever seen them add underlayment on top of the liner but it makes sense. The gravel I'll be laying down is very round but there are trace amounts of other things in there from the quarry & delivery truck which may be sharp.


Any downside to adding underlayment on top that anyone is aware of?


I'm leaning towards this 6oz underlayment: seems like a good price and will be here in a few days:

View attachment 159292

Cheaper and free shipping.
 

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