spring start up problems—help needed

[MitchM]

...

and 2 - 50% water changes within 2 days.

Nothing is standing out as a problem to me, but I don't see any source water parameters.
...

Whoops, what am I thinking...2 big water changes like that is a red flag for me.
Sudden changes in water chemistry can certainly cause fish stress.

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[barryian]

That jumping fish for 6 years wasn't Jenny,it was sissy Barry.

oops! Edited that out ... Thx Smaug ... too many variables ... a scope is a big help ... what do you think about food causing this! It does happen, never to me, but Googling it, it's a possibility. Meyer said ammonia spike after feeding ... getting very confusing!

 

[Smaug]

I may or may not have had a kill 3 springs ago due to food. It was my 3 biggest eaters went from healthy to dead over night one spring just after the first big feeding of tetra brand spring fall food. My pond wasn't in the greatest shall that spring so I'm not really sure what happened. As for an ammonia spike immediately after feeding,I can't buy into that if there was no ammonia reading beforehand. The red streaks on the fins points to ammonia, nitrite or nitrate poisoning. Since Jenny has tested many times for ammonia and found little to none then it points to some other toxin. These things are a bit £€ to sort through without seeing the pond. Seeing a pic or two of the affected fish coukd be helpfull.

 

[Jenny]

I'll send pictures tomorrow, check the rest of the fish, and go to the pond shop. I have homework.

 

[barryian]

I may or may not have had a kill 3 springs ago due to food. It was my 3 biggest eaters went from healthy to dead over night one spring just after the first big feeding of tetra brand spring fall food. My pond wasn't in the greatest shall that spring so I'm not really sure what happened. As for an ammonia spike immediately after feeding,I can't buy into that if there was no ammonia reading beforehand. The red streaks on the fins points to ammonia, nitrite or nitrate poisoning. Since Jenny has tested many times for ammonia and found little to none then it points to some other toxin. These things are a bit £€ to sort through without seeing the pond. Seeing a pic or two of the affected fish coukd be helpfull.

Hmm - I hear ya! Haven't had these mystical problems, fortunately. My pond is like a sterile operating room ... lol plus like you I watch them like a hawk. With good water parameters, all usually will stay well. That's not written in stone. With all do respect to Meyer, I wouldn't think either that you feed your fish, ammonia spikes, they flash, ammonia goes down, they flash a little, then you feed them and they flash again. I can imagine it's as simple as food being bad, old or who knows. The red streak can be from the rise which we know she had. It's a tough call from this side of the fence. Pics are hard too as there never clear enough unless the fish was sedated, lied out to shoot a shot. Microscopes are the key to mere take some scraping and determine the cause.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I have always in the past refrained from attempting to make any definitive diagnosis of fish health issues. This has been because: 1) I am not a veterinarian, 2) Many fish diseases exhibit the same symptoms, 3) It is all but impossible to make any legitimate determination without being on site and observing the infected fish and its immediate environs first hand.
That being the case, i will still offer 'what-ifs' such as the Ammonia spiking after feeding. Which is a fact-
"Since ammonia is a byproduct of the catabolism of protein, it is strongly influenced by feeding and subsequent metabolism of the feed by fish and bacteria. Ammonia typically peaks about 90 minutes after feeding."
http://web.utk.edu/~rstrange/wfs556/html-content/05-ammonia.htm

After re-reading the reliable resources on fish disease, it appears that Costia may possibly be the cause of Jenny's problems. I would suggest that this be investigated further and if satisfied that this may be the problem, then treat as recommended. Check this site first-
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/costia.htm

 

[sissy]

I know when I clean the bottom of my pond it changes the test after for days until the quilt batting picks up all the stuff I stirred up .Plus right now the frogs are not helping .plus I got a bad test kit from the supplier and not sure what happened ,but it was reading high on everything so got another test kit and all is fine with the new kit .Old kit is still testing high .

 

[barryian]

I have always in the past refrained from attempting to make any definitive diagnosis of fish health issues. This has been because: 1) I am not a veterinarian, 2) Many fish diseases exhibit the same symptoms, 3) It is all but impossible to make any legitimate determination without being on site and observing the infected fish and its immediate environs first hand.
That being the case, i will still offer 'what-ifs' such as the Ammonia spiking after feeding. Which is a fact-
"Since ammonia is a byproduct of the catabolism of protein, it is strongly influenced by feeding and subsequent metabolism of the feed by fish and bacteria. Ammonia typically peaks about 90 minutes after feeding."
http://web.utk.edu/~rstrange/wfs556/html-content/05-ammonia.htm

After re-reading the reliable resources on fish disease, it appears that Costia may possibly be the cause of Jenny's problems. I would suggest that this be investigated further and if satisfied that this may be the problem, then treat as recommended. Check this site first-
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/costia.htm

I agree but the longer she waits, the more likely the situation could be exacerbated should it be bacterial or fungal. It's tough when someone doesn't have the resources. I also have little faith in pond shops selling all kinds of cures and snake oils. Best thing if they are showing further signs of bacterial or parasitic infection would be a broad spectrum solution but, then again, it still can be fungus related needed a different med or as you said, ammonia spikes but would those spikes go back to zero? If so, would the flashing stop?It is a strange occurrence, after feeding and in the evening. Where's Dick Tracey when you need him? Problem here is, you can't treat for bacterial & fungal as fish are already stressed and that will add to the stress. Eventually, Costia would show it's ugly head. Then treatment becomes a bit more difficult. They've become more resistant to salt treatment. Tough, tough, tough one being here and not there for us.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I agree but the longer she waits, the more likely the situation could be exacerbated should it be bacterial or fungal. It's tough when someone doesn't have the resources. I also have little faith in pond shops selling all kinds of cures and snake oils. Best thing if they are showing further signs of bacterial or parasitic infection would be a broad spectrum solution but, then again, it still can be fungus related needed a different med or as you said, ammonia spikes but would those spikes go back to zero? If so, would the flashing stop?It is a strange occurrence, after feeding and in the evening. Where's Dick Tracey when you need him? Problem here is, you can't treat for bacterial & fungal as fish are already stressed and that will add to the stress. Eventually, Costia would show it's ugly head. Then treatment becomes a bit more difficult. They've become more resistant to salt treatment. Tough, tough, tough one being here and not there for us.

All of the initial symptoms of Costia are already present. Worth investigating further.

 

[barryian]

All of the initial symptoms of Costia are already present. Worth investigating further.

Wouldn't respiration be impaired and reddened around the fins. Some physical signs should show, right? Salt is a fairly harmless option for numerous parasites ....

Just edited this after reading the link! One link is bad!

This expert rather says it all! She seems to have mentioned most of this throughout the comments! \
Proform C or what?

" Costia infestations cause a typical irritation response from the fish. Heavy and laboured 'breathing' (judged by watching operculum movements), flashing and rubbing, skin cloudiness caused by excess mucus, focal redness, lethargy. At a later advanced stage (which may be too late for treatment) fish often isolate themselves, sometimes near the water surface or water return. They can also exhibit extreme lethargy with long spells laying on the bottom with clamped fins. I should also point out that these clinical signs are not exclusive to parasite infestations and can be caused by several other factors including adverse water quality "...

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Wouldn't respiration be impaired and reddened around the fins. Some physical signs should show, right? Salt is a fairly harmless option for numerous parasites ....

From the sources that I looked at, respiration problems and redness around the gills are advanced signs. From the symptoms that have been reported it seems that a general parasite treatment would be appropriate.If gill damage has already occurred, even it saved, the fish will never return to normal. Again IF this is costia.

 

[Jenny]

I brought pictures and water to the shop. His reading showed low ammonia levels, so I bought a new kit to replace mine. He also gave me a hook worm/fish lice treatment. It's a once every seven days treatment. So, his advice: one more 50% water change before treatment to decrease ammonia and then hold off on detoxifying/water changes during treatment. I'm going back in a week for him to check water again. If anyone's interested I can post the brand of medication.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

What was the actual numeric result of the Ammonia test? Yes , please post medication name.

 

[barryian]

What was the actual numeric result of the Ammonia test? Yes , please post medication name.

Getting curious myself to see the med and ammonia level. Also think a binder would be better than a huge 50% water change again. Too many water changes! Hook worm? Must mean anchor worm but they would be obvious by eye! Lice? Another guess! What ya thinkin ? @Meyer Jordan ...

 

[Jenny]

Sorry! Anchor worm.

Ammonia level less than .25. I agree that there have been a lot of water changes, but I'm not sure it's such a bad thing. I'll wait until tomorrow to start medicating so they can de-stress a little.

Medication is called Cyropro.