Thinking about it...

Discussion in 'Introductions' started by Don't Be Koi With Me, Feb 15, 2017.

  1. Don't Be Koi With Me

    Don't Be Koi With Me

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    Hey, all.
    I'm not a pond guy AT ALL, although I'm a fairly experienced aquarist.
    Long story short, my wife thinks it's about time to take down some tanks and make some room around the house. I've been reading about stock tank ponds and was contemplating getting one for the backyard so as to still "be in the fish game."
    I am thinking about a Tuff Stuff 110 and maybe a dozen goldfish (Shubbies, Moors, Comets, evenly).
    Would this tub suffice? I'm aware of the fish per gallon rule for aquariums but not for "ponds".
    Any help would be greatly appreciated...
    And met with many more questions!
    Let's roll!!!
     
    Don't Be Koi With Me, Feb 15, 2017
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    MoonShadows The Jam Man

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    welcome-wagon.gif
    Welcome DBKWM...Funny user name!
    I'm rather new to all this too, so I will defer to someone with the knowledge rather then guess an answer.
     
    MoonShadows, Feb 16, 2017
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    Becky Administrator

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    Welcome to the forum! :)
     
    Becky, Feb 16, 2017
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    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    "Fish per gallon" is a completely inaccurate method of determining the sustainable fish population in any venue....cup, bowl, tub, aquarium, pond, etc.!
    Are these small fish? Large fish? young fish (still growing)?

    Total fish mass (weight) as relates to total surface area available for nitrifying bacteria is the correct method for determining maximum fish load.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Feb 16, 2017
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    MoonShadows The Jam Man

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    Is there an equation to figure this out, Meyer?
     
    MoonShadows, Feb 16, 2017
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    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Meyer Jordan, Feb 16, 2017
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    sissy sissy

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    Welcome and you need to think about a filter and remember the fish will have babies also .My tank I use for plants and baby fish I give away is one of those 100_7171.JPG
     
    sissy, Feb 16, 2017
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    TAHOE

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    Welcome
    I have done a fair share of aquariums and I do not agree with the 1" per gallon rule.

    I have a 100 gal rubbermaid livestock animal trough in my basement currently housing my goldfish while my pond is under going a renovation.I had about 20 in it, these are 4-6 yr old fish ranging from 4-8" so pretty large. I had a 12 hour electric outage and lost 12 of them ( we now have a generator for the next time). That being said, I have a 30 gal pickle drum converted in to a bio filter with lava rock and it held up to the old fish load. I also use it outside on my 150 gal pond.
    If you can, over size the filter and you should be fine.

    Are you wanting this to be moveable or have you considered actually putting a pond in the ground? You can find a lot of use 100-200 gal plastic preforms on cragislist. If you want it to be raise, build a frame around it using treated wood, did that for one that i used as an indoor turtle pond.
     
    TAHOE, Feb 16, 2017
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    Gordo33

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    Welcome it's nice to have another aquarist diving into the pond world. Although ponds have their unique needs many of the basics from keeping aquariums apply to ponds. Just at a larger scale. Aquariums use sumps to increase water volume and filtration. The same concept can be applied to the stock tank using planters or other containers if the water parameters dictate a need to increase water volume and filtration . Good luck with your pond
     
    Gordo33, Feb 16, 2017
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    Don't Be Koi With Me

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    Hey, Tahoe. Thanks for the reply.
    I too don't agree with the 1" per gallon rule, just using that as a topic generator for a pond estimate.
    As for the filter I made an easy internal filter that should move roughly 250-275 gph.
    Here's a link to vid I posted on the tube (can I do that?)

    I'll also be running about 125 gph through another filter that will drain into pond from a mini wine barrel (same deal as bucket except external.)
    What is the recommended turnover rate for
    ponds?

    I'm not ready for an in ground pond just yet. So I am gonna build a frame for the tub. Actually, I'll probably tile the damn thing in after backerboarding the frame (give me a little more practice on my tile work!) So it won't be going anywhere until i smash it.

    I plan on having some plants in the substrate as well as a couple on some small shelves I've made.

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    Don't Be Koi With Me, Feb 16, 2017
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    MitchM

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    Welcome!

    You're essentially setting up an outdoor aquarium, with a few differences to keep in mind:

    -You won't have any control over heat. The sun, wind and your geographical location will determine that.
    -There will be a constant flow of organic material into your pond - dust, leaves, bird droppings, bugs, etc.
    -Turnover is typically 2x/hour for ponds, but if you're doing a substrate with plants the turnover can be much less. It depends on what plants you are going to choose. Typical garden soil with a gravel cap will work. If you're going to have a lily, they are fine in basic clay or kitty litter.
    -shubunkins are too big for that container.
    -set up your pond keeping in mind how it will do during your winter.
    -I would recommend a max of 6 small fish, no more.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    MitchM, Feb 16, 2017
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    TAHOE

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    I always like a good DIY build.
    I put my submersible pump in a filter box with some coarse matting( actually it's floor scrubber pads) and I find that it clogs really quick, especially during an algae bloom. It's a pain to pull out and clean just the small box, I would believe yours may be a real pain to clean if it's down inside the pond. Keep us posted once you get something up and running
     
    TAHOE, Feb 16, 2017
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    sissy sissy

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    you can get reusable furnace filters from lowes .they are blue
     
    sissy, Feb 16, 2017
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    peter hillman Let me think for minute....

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    Pleased to meet you. Many of us kept aquariums before ponds. I think it's a lot easier and far less expensive than the reef tank I was running. Once you've acquired your vessel and hardware it shouldn't cost much more. Check your local craigslist for pond supplies, I sold my fathers entire system there for $50.
     
    peter hillman, Feb 16, 2017
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    Don't Be Koi With Me

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    There are few things that are more expensive than running a reef!
    LoL
    I've got most of the materials I need laying around. I'm hoping my DIY filter(s) cuts the mustard. I'm sure it will as it should turn over the tub roughly 3.5-4 times an hour.
    I've made dozens of filters over the years and the process is the same for a pond, if I understand correctly.
    Thanks for the reply!
     
    Don't Be Koi With Me, Feb 16, 2017
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    Gordo33

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    The author states his bio filters have SSA ratings to help determine the filters maximum bio load. Is this based on the type of bio filter media housed by the filter? If the bio media determines SSA do you know any articles that rates the SSA for different bio media ? It seems to me just using this method would under estimate the amount of fish you can have in a pond. There is no mention of other places the BB can grow. Such as along the liner once pond is established , roots of plants and in a stream that has rocks and gravel. I wonder what percentage the dedicated bio filter contributes to the SSA available for BB.
    Do you know if the weight chart is referring to koi only? Will a 10 inch koi and 10 inch gold fish have the same body mass? The reason I ask this is length alone take in all the dimensions (ht,girth) to determine the weight of a fish
     
    Gordo33, Feb 16, 2017
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    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Wow! A lot of questions there....but good ones.
    Different media have different SSA determined by size of media, surface texture of media and porosity of media. In attempting to determine the exact SSA of any media or even the exact requirements of a pond one would be quickly mired in a mathematical nightmare. Such exactness is not only not necessary as performance of any bacteria is dependent on many factors, much like many other things in aquatic ecology---temperature, pH, oxygen etc.
    A close approximation of not only SSA but of the required total SSA is all that is needed as all fish have comfortable ranges of all of the main pond water quality parameters.
    For all of the reasons noted above, general SSA ratings of various filter media is usually what is used to determine the appropriate level of biofiltration.
    Surfaces such as EPDM liner are typically given a SSA rating of 1 m2/m3. Other SSA ratings for commonly used filter media are given in the charts below.
    SSA ratings chart.jpg SSA chart.jpg
    Add to this the fact that the weights given in the chart from Russell Water Gardens are also approximate as the general physical condition of the fish is not taken into account....skinny, well-fed.
    I would be comfortable in using this chart or the size/weight calculator here (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/koicalcs.php?do=calclenw) for Koi or Goldfish as they are very lose cousins genetically.
    The answer to your question concerning percentage of SSA utilized by nitrifying bacteria may surprise you and many others. The answer is, on a good day under the most optimum conditions, nitrifying bacteria colonize only 3% - 5% of available SSA.


    .......and sometimes there is no bacteria at all. But that 's another story for another thread.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
    Meyer Jordan, Feb 17, 2017
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    addy1 water gardener / gold fish and shubunkins Moderator

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    Welcome to our group! You will get a lot of good help here.
     
    addy1, Feb 17, 2017
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    barryian

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    Interesting stats, somewhat intense! Many variables, especially how much one's filtration system can handle. I have overkill yet my fish are getting larger. Last year when I mentioned I had 3 spawns in one week, it took 3 weeks to get levels back to normal. I can't imagine how much ammonia was released that week. It was like an A-Bomb went off! Female koi create high maintenance ... with all due respect ladies but the was stressful ...
     
    barryian, Feb 18, 2017
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    addy1 water gardener / gold fish and shubunkins Moderator

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    lol one of the many reasons I stayed away from Koi! Beautiful fish, but I wanted a easy to care for pond. So we have pretty shubbies!
     
    addy1, Feb 18, 2017
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