Mmathis
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How are these similar and/or different? And what are the differences in the construction methods & materials?
TRICKLE TOWERS AND SHOWER FILTERS
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JohnHuff
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Trickle is slow, the best example was a guy who bound a whole bunch of bioballs in a column and just let the water flow down them. A shower filter is where water cascades from one level to another with a lot of splashing.
For a trickle tower, I'd make a tower from plastic fencing material, fill it with media like rocks or bio-balls and let water trickle down it. But I don't like that style because I don't want to have a tall tower.
I made a shower filter from plastic planters, drilled a lot of holes in them and put cut up plastic straws inside. The water falls from one level to another and exits to the pond. I like this one better because it's more stable and lower and doesn't take a lot of room. I only had 3-4 inches of space between the bottom of one planter and the water in the next. It was enough for the water to produce bubbles.
I think space and hiding filters is important so from my tank/aquarium experience for next season I'm going to build a wet/dry filter entirely from pipes that will be low to the ground and hidden but will have more media capacity. (I have to say that keeping an indoor tank opened by eyes to what can be done in a small space.)
For a trickle tower, I'd make a tower from plastic fencing material, fill it with media like rocks or bio-balls and let water trickle down it. But I don't like that style because I don't want to have a tall tower.
I made a shower filter from plastic planters, drilled a lot of holes in them and put cut up plastic straws inside. The water falls from one level to another and exits to the pond. I like this one better because it's more stable and lower and doesn't take a lot of room. I only had 3-4 inches of space between the bottom of one planter and the water in the next. It was enough for the water to produce bubbles.
I think space and hiding filters is important so from my tank/aquarium experience for next season I'm going to build a wet/dry filter entirely from pipes that will be low to the ground and hidden but will have more media capacity. (I have to say that keeping an indoor tank opened by eyes to what can be done in a small space.)
Mmathis
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A little more detail would be nice
And thanks for the reply -- was beginning to feel ignored.....
JohnHuff
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Most filters are made by using pots, planters, tanks, etc. Why not use Zoidberg? Sorry, couldn't resist that. I mean, why not use a tank that's in the shape of a PVC pipe? They sell 6 inch and 8 inch pipes at Home Depot. You can shape this "tank" any way you want using 90 and 180 degree elbows and hide it behind bushes or behind a low wall or even underground instead of having a huge barrel or something. You can even hide this filter in the pond. As long as the inlet is higher than the level of pond water, water will still flow out the other end.
I'd cut the differences a bit finer. There is a belief and/or theory, maybe even fact, that a Shower filter is not a bio filter at all, but a mechanical filter. That water being agitated strongly enough would outgas ammonia from water and even nitrates. So no bacteria needed.
Most, maybe all, Trickle Towers are bio filters, using nitrifying bacteria as their primary ammonia conversion method.
However, from the few experiments I've read the question remains open. Certainly with Showers the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate didn't act like a normal bio filter in some cases and it looked like ammonia was outgassed. I don't remember if nitrates were commonly reduced, I don't think so. The problem is no one that I know has been able to show what it is about a Shower that causes this. The height? Number of trays? Media? Hole size? Water volume? Etc. Many people assume it has to do with water crashing because that's kind of the most active thing. But it could be as simple as breaking water into small streams of water and allowing it to free fall thru the air for some distance. So right now no one can say "if you build to spec X you will have ammonia or nitrate outgassing".
But of course nitrifying bacteria grows everywhere and a Shower filter would be choice real estate for them so there always would be some bio. But it isn't clear bio would be a Shower's main conversion factor. Also many Shower filters may not be configured correctly for the outgassing function and in that case would be a bio filter and more accurately called a Trickle Tower imo.
So to me there would be two definitions. The more common definition is based on appearance. They do look like a stack of showers, so Shower seems accurate. The other definition would be based on how the filter removes ammonia. If by outgassing then certainly it's a Shower. If bio I'd personally call it a Trickle Tower because I think it's more accurate for the way I think of filters, function, not looks. Looks fool people, function is measured.
BTW, when Trickle Towers first came out some people thought they also out gassed ammonia and nitrates, and some numbers kind of pointed that way. But in recent years I don't think many people believe that claim anymore. Should the Shower conversion method ever be better understood we might look back at some "Trickle Towers" and reconsider them to be Shower filters in function. Or maybe new names will be invented like "Ammonia Outgasser".
The differences are interesting and important because an ammonia outgasser would be valuable because it wouldn't need any cycling and could work at very low temps. Trouble is once someone has one up and working that's kind of the end of the data for that filter. No one I know of is ripping down a working Shower and reconfiguring to see if anything changes. So surprisingly little is actually known beyond they seem to work very well at ammonia removal, how ever they do it.
The media in Showers has changed. Certainly the first Shower filter didn't use Bakki media, but for awhile all Shower filters were called Bakki Shower, and often still are, even if Bakki media isn't used. To me a Baki Shower must use Bakki media otherwise it's just confusing. Today I don't think there's any difference in what media is used. Originally for Trickle Towers lava rock was considered a must but no more.
I would also say that currently 99% of Shower filters are built and used by fish farms and some high end Koi keepers. That means the filters are built too pretty exact specs. These types of people do not like to experiment with high value fish. So the Shower has been kind of handed down from the most experienced keepers to very experienced keepers who follow directions as close as possible. If Shower filters become well know by hobbyists you will start to see lots of filters being called Shower just as you see today everything being called a bio filter just because it sounds highbrow. "Skippy Shower" would probably be a fav.
For sure Shower filters are based on Trickle Towers because the first Shower filters were very close to being a Trickle Tower with a very small gap between trays to add more air. But I'd guess the main reason Showers were built was for smaller footprint based on the space premium in Japan. Higher was unused space. IMO the outgassing thing was strictly serendipitous.
IMO Showers should be removed from the short list purely based on noise, they're very loud and unpleasant. No problem for a fish farm but for most backyards they're not welcome. Kind of a Catch-22. If you have a small space and could use the high capacity conversion of a Shower it's also too small a space for such a loud device. If you have enough space to hide the Shower off behind the garage then you have the space for a larger and cheaper Trickle Tower that would convert the same amount of ammonia.
Most, maybe all, Trickle Towers are bio filters, using nitrifying bacteria as their primary ammonia conversion method.
However, from the few experiments I've read the question remains open. Certainly with Showers the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate didn't act like a normal bio filter in some cases and it looked like ammonia was outgassed. I don't remember if nitrates were commonly reduced, I don't think so. The problem is no one that I know has been able to show what it is about a Shower that causes this. The height? Number of trays? Media? Hole size? Water volume? Etc. Many people assume it has to do with water crashing because that's kind of the most active thing. But it could be as simple as breaking water into small streams of water and allowing it to free fall thru the air for some distance. So right now no one can say "if you build to spec X you will have ammonia or nitrate outgassing".
But of course nitrifying bacteria grows everywhere and a Shower filter would be choice real estate for them so there always would be some bio. But it isn't clear bio would be a Shower's main conversion factor. Also many Shower filters may not be configured correctly for the outgassing function and in that case would be a bio filter and more accurately called a Trickle Tower imo.
So to me there would be two definitions. The more common definition is based on appearance. They do look like a stack of showers, so Shower seems accurate. The other definition would be based on how the filter removes ammonia. If by outgassing then certainly it's a Shower. If bio I'd personally call it a Trickle Tower because I think it's more accurate for the way I think of filters, function, not looks. Looks fool people, function is measured.
BTW, when Trickle Towers first came out some people thought they also out gassed ammonia and nitrates, and some numbers kind of pointed that way. But in recent years I don't think many people believe that claim anymore. Should the Shower conversion method ever be better understood we might look back at some "Trickle Towers" and reconsider them to be Shower filters in function. Or maybe new names will be invented like "Ammonia Outgasser".
The differences are interesting and important because an ammonia outgasser would be valuable because it wouldn't need any cycling and could work at very low temps. Trouble is once someone has one up and working that's kind of the end of the data for that filter. No one I know of is ripping down a working Shower and reconfiguring to see if anything changes. So surprisingly little is actually known beyond they seem to work very well at ammonia removal, how ever they do it.
The media in Showers has changed. Certainly the first Shower filter didn't use Bakki media, but for awhile all Shower filters were called Bakki Shower, and often still are, even if Bakki media isn't used. To me a Baki Shower must use Bakki media otherwise it's just confusing. Today I don't think there's any difference in what media is used. Originally for Trickle Towers lava rock was considered a must but no more.
I would also say that currently 99% of Shower filters are built and used by fish farms and some high end Koi keepers. That means the filters are built too pretty exact specs. These types of people do not like to experiment with high value fish. So the Shower has been kind of handed down from the most experienced keepers to very experienced keepers who follow directions as close as possible. If Shower filters become well know by hobbyists you will start to see lots of filters being called Shower just as you see today everything being called a bio filter just because it sounds highbrow. "Skippy Shower" would probably be a fav.
For sure Shower filters are based on Trickle Towers because the first Shower filters were very close to being a Trickle Tower with a very small gap between trays to add more air. But I'd guess the main reason Showers were built was for smaller footprint based on the space premium in Japan. Higher was unused space. IMO the outgassing thing was strictly serendipitous.
IMO Showers should be removed from the short list purely based on noise, they're very loud and unpleasant. No problem for a fish farm but for most backyards they're not welcome. Kind of a Catch-22. If you have a small space and could use the high capacity conversion of a Shower it's also too small a space for such a loud device. If you have enough space to hide the Shower off behind the garage then you have the space for a larger and cheaper Trickle Tower that would convert the same amount of ammonia.
JohnHuff
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Waterbug, I did a search and I've found only a one article online that showed nitrates was being outgassed by a falling water filter.
http://www.mpks.org/...ickleTower.html
I haven't seen anything showing that ammonia is outgassed. I wonder if that has to do with the ammonia in solution having hydrogen ions and bonding too strongly with water.
I also found this thread from a few years back:
http://www.koiphen.c...h-bakki-showers
A guy there installs filters and his experience is that nitrates are decreased to zero. None of the posters believe that ammonia is outgassed.
And unfortunately the same searches showed a lot of links showing people how to make meth!
BTW, Waterbug, I think your post may fall into the category of drtl for the OP.
http://www.mpks.org/...ickleTower.html
I haven't seen anything showing that ammonia is outgassed. I wonder if that has to do with the ammonia in solution having hydrogen ions and bonding too strongly with water.
I also found this thread from a few years back:
http://www.koiphen.c...h-bakki-showers
A guy there installs filters and his experience is that nitrates are decreased to zero. None of the posters believe that ammonia is outgassed.
And unfortunately the same searches showed a lot of links showing people how to make meth!
BTW, Waterbug, I think your post may fall into the category of drtl for the OP.
minnowman
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In high density aquaculture, a trickle tower or shower filter is often used with lots of air flow to out-gas CO2 and absorb oxygen immediately after a submerged media biofilter. Water exiting a biofilter has reduced oxygen and increased CO2 as a result of bacteria changing ammonia into nitrates. Increased CO2 level acts as an anesthetic on fish. There are some anaerobic bacteria that convert nitrates directly into nitrogen gas, but hydrogen sulfide( which is toxic) can also be produced in anaerobic conditions, so that process is difficult to use safely.
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Simple answer to their difference in appearance is given by their names. Trickle tower is water trickling over material. Shower tower is water showering down on top of material. Trickle is a slower flow rate of water versus a shower tower. Heat displacement will occur since these are more exposed to the ambient air temperatures. Shower towers do produce louder water noise than any other filter. However, there are ways to build these to be more aesthitacally pleasing and to reduce noise. Unfortunately, people love to take and create the most disturbing, ugly, and noisiest pictures of these filters to prove why they do not have one. It is my understanding that shower towers will extract more ammonia out of the water when compared to trickle towers. I also heard of trickle towers very commonly used as the bio-filter for small outdoor/indoor ponds and aquariums and quarantine tanks. Obviously, these filters will turn bone dry if electrcity can not be restored soon enough. However, these filters "cycle" period to remove ammonia is extremely short, that is as short as 5 days in creating a complete "cycle" under optimal conditions.
There is a concern in the formation of anaerobic bacteria in shower towers, just as with any filter, but these type of bacteria require extremely low oxygen saturation to produce hydrogen sulfide. I would imagine shower towers are extremely well oxygenated and using the appropriate medium helps as well. Of course, over time and if the water is not properly pre-filtered, I could see how debris would accumulate between/inside the medium and at the bottom of each tray. Although, depending on medium used and arrangement and number of holes, I would think the debris would not become thick enough to reduce oxygen saturation levels low enough for the anaerobes to create hydrogen sulfide. Off hand, best I can recall, I think anaerobes require an oxygen saturation below .5mg/L; don't quote me on that, but I do know it is very low.
From start to finish, the best thread I have found for demonstration of the effectiveness, setup, degasing abilities, and a partial explanation of Shower Tower is birdman's new test tank thread.
I bet ya the flow of water, temperature of the air and water temperature, water pH, water chemistry, and water contaminants would have an impact on the degassing process. Entire process might actually not be so complex. I would keep this in mind as well when attempting to repeat birdman's results.
Hmmm, an interesting proposal by Waterbug of how a shower tower could be technically called a mechanical filter since the "mechanical" portion is refering to the process of degassing rather than the removal of particulate waste.
Below is a picture of a trickle tower. It appears they formed chicken wire into a basket. Inserted the pvc in the center that is probably connected to a small, very simple, submersible fountain pump. Filled the basket with lava rock. Pretty simple and very eye pleasing. Actually, looks like a pretty neat rock column fountain. Seems like you could make a trickle tower like this to be any size by simply making a smaller basket.
There is a concern in the formation of anaerobic bacteria in shower towers, just as with any filter, but these type of bacteria require extremely low oxygen saturation to produce hydrogen sulfide. I would imagine shower towers are extremely well oxygenated and using the appropriate medium helps as well. Of course, over time and if the water is not properly pre-filtered, I could see how debris would accumulate between/inside the medium and at the bottom of each tray. Although, depending on medium used and arrangement and number of holes, I would think the debris would not become thick enough to reduce oxygen saturation levels low enough for the anaerobes to create hydrogen sulfide. Off hand, best I can recall, I think anaerobes require an oxygen saturation below .5mg/L; don't quote me on that, but I do know it is very low.
From start to finish, the best thread I have found for demonstration of the effectiveness, setup, degasing abilities, and a partial explanation of Shower Tower is birdman's new test tank thread.
I bet ya the flow of water, temperature of the air and water temperature, water pH, water chemistry, and water contaminants would have an impact on the degassing process. Entire process might actually not be so complex. I would keep this in mind as well when attempting to repeat birdman's results.
Hmmm, an interesting proposal by Waterbug of how a shower tower could be technically called a mechanical filter since the "mechanical" portion is refering to the process of degassing rather than the removal of particulate waste.
Below is a picture of a trickle tower. It appears they formed chicken wire into a basket. Inserted the pvc in the center that is probably connected to a small, very simple, submersible fountain pump. Filled the basket with lava rock. Pretty simple and very eye pleasing. Actually, looks like a pretty neat rock column fountain. Seems like you could make a trickle tower like this to be any size by simply making a smaller basket.
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JohnHuff
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That's an 18 page long thread! Is there a summary of it?
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
hehe :razz: Yes there is! my 2nd to last post in that thread !! :banana: :banana: :banana:
Yeah, I think the same whenever I start reading threads that are very long with 20+ pages, my eyes start glazing over at the beginning, except it is one I actually enjoyed reading. The way I try to prepare myself mentally is by saying that it is "20+ pages of discovery", and, if you take good notes as you read, then you will only have to read it once and can often summarize the 20+ page thread into one page.
Yeah, I think the same whenever I start reading threads that are very long with 20+ pages, my eyes start glazing over at the beginning, except it is one I actually enjoyed reading. The way I try to prepare myself mentally is by saying that it is "20+ pages of discovery", and, if you take good notes as you read, then you will only have to read it once and can often summarize the 20+ page thread into one page.
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Summary I posted in the thread was about the results.
Here are my notes for the shower tower construction ... Argghh, took a while for me to find it. Been organizing my library so got everything in a mess.
From birdman's new test tank thread .... he provides some good pictures as well which is a major help.
Page4, post#79. First starts talking about his shower towers. Bottom of the lower shower tray will be right at water level. post#103 indicates he would like to set it a little higher except the ceiling is too low.
Page5, post#81. One outlet for the bottom tray of shower. Outlet 4" plastic pipe. For the spray bar at top tray, he talks about using 2 x 2" distribution pipes.
page6, post#101. Preliminary setup picture of the shower tower and picture of the spray bar. post#104 spray bars are setup.
page6, post#118. Shower tower medium being prepared. page7, post#129. Explains why using this particular medium.
page7, post#130. Final setup picture of the shower tower.
page8, post#149. Spray bar updated. Used a saw to create slots in the bar instead of holes. post#152 gives a very good picture of the spray bar in action.
page9, post#163. Bottom tray in the shower has zero medium in it, it is an empty tray.
Here are my notes for the shower tower construction ... Argghh, took a while for me to find it. Been organizing my library so got everything in a mess.
From birdman's new test tank thread .... he provides some good pictures as well which is a major help.
Page4, post#79. First starts talking about his shower towers. Bottom of the lower shower tray will be right at water level. post#103 indicates he would like to set it a little higher except the ceiling is too low.
Page5, post#81. One outlet for the bottom tray of shower. Outlet 4" plastic pipe. For the spray bar at top tray, he talks about using 2 x 2" distribution pipes.
page6, post#101. Preliminary setup picture of the shower tower and picture of the spray bar. post#104 spray bars are setup.
page6, post#118. Shower tower medium being prepared. page7, post#129. Explains why using this particular medium.
page7, post#130. Final setup picture of the shower tower.
page8, post#149. Spray bar updated. Used a saw to create slots in the bar instead of holes. post#152 gives a very good picture of the spray bar in action.
page9, post#163. Bottom tray in the shower has zero medium in it, it is an empty tray.
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
I can easily see this done in a typical outdoor pond.
I would probably cut slits all over the bottom area of the bottom tray instead of using a 4" outlet. I would also probably use a 2x 3" pipes as my spray bar to make sure I get the most flow as possible.
Then, make a little beach head or stream where the shower tower flows into the pond. Exiting water being closer to the water level or stream or beach head will reduce water noise.
To make the tower more aesthically pleasing and to help reduce the noise, I would build a plant living wall on the sides of the tanks. Placing an extremely thin weed barrier to prevent roots or dirt or dust or plant debris from blowing into the trays. Also, I think could get fancy with some PL goop or other type of adhesive to transform the tower into a rock column water feature.
I would probably cut slits all over the bottom area of the bottom tray instead of using a 4" outlet. I would also probably use a 2x 3" pipes as my spray bar to make sure I get the most flow as possible.
Then, make a little beach head or stream where the shower tower flows into the pond. Exiting water being closer to the water level or stream or beach head will reduce water noise.
To make the tower more aesthically pleasing and to help reduce the noise, I would build a plant living wall on the sides of the tanks. Placing an extremely thin weed barrier to prevent roots or dirt or dust or plant debris from blowing into the trays. Also, I think could get fancy with some PL goop or other type of adhesive to transform the tower into a rock column water feature.
whiskey
Always trying to perfect something fishy
MMATHIS
ALL I WILL ADD TO ABOVE, IS I`M VERY PLEASED WITH THE ONE I MADE , HOLDS 12 TRAYS AND GOT 18,000 LITRES PER HOUR OVER IT AND HELPS TOWARDS WATER QUALITY........ :goodnight:
ALL I WILL ADD TO ABOVE, IS I`M VERY PLEASED WITH THE ONE I MADE , HOLDS 12 TRAYS AND GOT 18,000 LITRES PER HOUR OVER IT AND HELPS TOWARDS WATER QUALITY........ :goodnight:
That's logical, but I've never seen this measured. IMO, because of how close to the air the water is thru the entire process my assumption would be that O2/CO2 would be basically constant thru the entire filter at least when using current measurement equipment. The amount of O2 consumed by bacteria in that 5-10 seconds water needs to pass thru would be so small compared to the potential for O2 to be replaced it seems inconceivable that the difference could be measured. So if I were a betting man I'd guess water coming out the pipe at the top had the lowest O2, highest C02 and by the time the water fell to the first media bed, or soon after, it would already be close to best case levels and that level would remain pretty constant thru the filter. Depends on the filter of course. But the goal of these is to keep gas exchange maxed thru the entire filter.
I think a Shower or Trickle Tower would be a difficult environment to grow a large anaerobic bacteria colony of any species. They certainly do exist in these, but not a great environment for them.
Mmathis
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OK, wasn't sure whether to post this under my "bog" thread or this one -- but my "bog" thread is tending more toward construction and this is a filtration question / issue:
BIOLOGICAL FILTRATION and BOGS -- looks like this could be an issue that I'll have to address at some point, which is why I was delving into the TT field. So bogs are better at mechanical filtration than bioconversion....
What are your opinions about that?
Will have a light to medium fish load and some turtle waste, 3000 gallons, and a bog. It's been mentioned that I probably have enough surface [lots of submerged PVC that is supporting the turtle "false bottom"] that the pond itself should provide adequate bioconversion, and I know that checking my water values will tell me where I stand with that. But still wondering if I should play it safe and plan ahead.
BIOLOGICAL FILTRATION and BOGS -- looks like this could be an issue that I'll have to address at some point, which is why I was delving into the TT field. So bogs are better at mechanical filtration than bioconversion....
What are your opinions about that?
Will have a light to medium fish load and some turtle waste, 3000 gallons, and a bog. It's been mentioned that I probably have enough surface [lots of submerged PVC that is supporting the turtle "false bottom"] that the pond itself should provide adequate bioconversion, and I know that checking my water values will tell me where I stand with that. But still wondering if I should play it safe and plan ahead.