Turtles, frogs, and diseases?

[Wayfarin]

Hello, folks!

As I've mentioned on other posts, we have a female red-eared slider (or "pond" slider) named Teresa. We've had her for over a decade.

As is often the case with red-eared sliders, she has grown too big and too challenging to keep inside in an average-sized aquarium tank.
I've been considering keeping her in an outdoor pond for quite some time, but the details are always changing because I can't decide on anything.

I've considered everything. I've even considered a pond at a turtle rescue, since it could be that she just isn't suitable to be our pet anymore. But unwanted red-eared sliders are rarely accepted by anyone.

On this post, I intend to discuss something else that's been on my mind. As I've mentioned on another post, I originally intended to house her in a secure outdoor enclosure with one or two American bullfrogs. I don't currently own any bullfrogs, but their tadpoles are sometimes available for free at Petco and Petsmart, and they are one of my favorite frogs.

But bullfrogs aren't as easy to contain in outdoor enclosures as turtles are, and turtles sometimes attack smaller frogs, so I might reconsider the whole idea.

However, small bullfrogs also hop around on our property when it rains. Actually, frogs are everywhere in our backyard! And it had occurred to me that the same frogs that can't be contained in outdoor enclosures also can't be kept out of them. Frogs are attracted to ponds like moths to a flame. This caused me to consider the consequences of Teresa sharing her housing with the hoppers...

Teresa may not be able to resist eating the tadpoles and small frogs that invade her home. People often say that when two reptile species are housed together, or when captive animals are fed wild feeders, they can transmit diseases to the animals. In addition to the chance of diseases, I wouldn't want Teresa to eat all the frogs that try to share the habitat.

Perhaps even worse, and more serious, is the risk that Teresa could spread diseases to the frogs. I know that both turtles and frogs can carry salmonella, but I don't know what else Teresa carries. Frogs obviously would not lick Teresa, but they might swallow the water that they both swim in. I don't believe that turtles carry the devastating chytrid fungus, but ranaviruses seem to be able to infect them.

I'm also aware that bullfrog and toad tadpoles are poisonous to fish, and pickerel frogs are poisonous to other frogs. Are they also poisonous to turtles?

Perhaps I'm overthinking the issue. But would it be possible for Teresa to coexist with wild frogs? Would it even be safe for Teresa and the frogs?

Should I try to "frog-proof" any outdoor enclosure that's dedicated to turtles? Many people try to prevent raccoons and whatnot, but preventing frogs seems to be an issue that is overlooked by everyone.

Perhaps I'm just overthinking the potential problems? Or is this a serious concern when keeping captive turtles outside?

Thanks for any input. God bless!

 

[Jhn]

Personally, I would say you are way overthinking things.

Could your turtle eat frogs sure, but such is nature.

Can they pass disease to each other, maybe, if disease from nonnative species of animals or captive kept were an issue though, we wouldn’t be allowed to keep koi and goldfish in outdoor ponds altogether, Since predatory animals will visit to snack on them, carry them off. The only rule in most states is you can’t release them into the wild, which is more of a concern with these nonnative animals establishing a breeding population that pushes out native species.

All reptiles, amphibians, etc. carry salmonella on them, kept in unsanitary conditions the salmonella bacteria pop. explodes and can be an issue. In an outdoor enclosure that is properly sized and filtered it won’t be an issue.

I keep Diamondback terrapins in outdoor ponds, and they are wholly carnivorous and dont go after healthy frogs or fish in my ponds. Most likely because there is little reward for the effort exerted ie they aren’t going to catch a healthy frog or fish and just waste energy, when they can just lounge about and get fed by me every other day or so.

just my thoughts…..

 

[JRS]

I think you are overthinking it. Local green frogs move into my ponds every year although the seem to know to avoid the turtle tubs, unless they don't get a second chance and I have not noticed. If the turtle is healthy you should be fine and they typically would be with proper clean conditions.

If the turtles don't like something they will spit it out. I have had cichlids eat toad tadpoles, they didn't like the taste and spit them out but eventually they ate them with no apparent harm.

 

[Wayfarin]

Personally, I would say you are way overthinking things.

Could your turtle eat frogs sure, but such is nature.

Can they pass disease to each other, maybe, if disease from nonnative species of animals or captive kept were an issue though, we wouldn’t be allowed to keep koi and goldfish in outdoor ponds altogether, Since predatory animals will visit to snack on them, carry them off. The only rule in most states is you can’t release them into the wild, which is more of a concern with these nonnative animals establishing a breeding population that pushes out native species.

All reptiles, amphibians, etc. carry salmonella on them, kept in unsanitary conditions the salmonella bacteria pop. explodes and can be an issue. In an outdoor enclosure that is properly sized and filtered it won’t be an issue.

I keep Diamondback terrapins in outdoor ponds, and they are wholly carnivorous and dont go after healthy frogs or fish in my ponds. Most likely because there is little reward for the effort exerted ie they aren’t going to catch a healthy frog or fish and just waste energy, when they can just lounge about and get fed by me every other day or so.

just my thoughts…..

The only filters I intend to use would be the plants.

If frogs are living in your pond, that's a good sign that they aren't getting sick from the turtles.

Sometimes, frogs experience local extinctions from diseases like the chytrid fungus. It isn't a joke.

 

[Wayfarin]

I think you are overthinking it. Local green frogs move into my ponds every year although the seem to know to avoid the turtle tubs, unless they don't get a second chance and I have not noticed. If the turtle is healthy you should be fine and they typically would be with proper clean conditions.

If the turtles don't like something they will spit it out. I have had cichlids eat toad tadpoles, they didn't like the taste and spit them out but eventually they ate them with no apparent harm.

I'm torn between three different ideas.

1: A turtle tub that does not allow frogs to coexist with Teresa at all. A small tub with minimal space and cover. This prevents the problems and conflicts caused by the two species coexisting, but dooms any frogs that find their way into the water.

2: An elaborate turtle pond that allows some frogs to survive. A pond with dense marginal vegetation and sufficient space to avoid crowding the frogs and turtle together. This allows at least some frogs to survive and thrive in our backyard, but allows Teresa to eat the frogs and tadpoles much more often, due to their abundance in and around the pond.

3: An elaborate turtle enclosure with vegetation that Teresa shares with a few "feeder tadpoles" from Petco or PetSmart. A tub that keeps captive frogs in and wild frogs out. Teresa might kill the few frogs and tadpoles within the enclosure eventually, but at least the wild frogs will be safe.

 

[JRS]

Your points summarize the issues well.

I have 300 gallon turtle tubs and you have to keep the water level below the edge a ways to keep the turtles in, also makes it hard for frogs to escape easily. A slider preying on a large frog can be a drawn out process.

I would go with option two, more natural and I doubt one turtle would be able to capture a large enough amount frogs to matter.

When the local frogs move into my in ground pond during rainstorms sometimes there are a few and sometimes up to 20 in about 700 gallons. Unless they move on, most end up dying over winter anyway as I let the pond freeze after all the livestock is taken inside.

 

[Wayfarin]

Your points summarize the issues well.

I have 300 gallon turtle tubs and you have to keep the water level below the edge a ways to keep the turtles in, also makes it hard for frogs to escape easily. A slider preying on a large frog can be a drawn out process.

Have you witnessed that happening? Gulp.

I would go with option two, more natural and I doubt one turtle would be able to capture a large enough amount frogs to matter.

When the local frogs move into my in ground pond during rainstorms sometimes there are a few and sometimes up to 20 in about 700 gallons. Unless they move on, most end up dying over winter anyway as I let the pond freeze after all the livestock is taken inside.

The second option would probably appeal to both animals most. But there are a few problems.
Namely, natural ponds with marginal vegetation are very appealing to raccoons as well.

Whereas, while I may be underestimating them, I'd imagine that raccoons would have a hard time catching turtles, frogs, and fish in 2' deep water in a raised stock tank without sloping sides.

Protecting pond animals is easy in a stock tank using zip ties and chicken wire to cover the tank. But keeping raccoons out of outdoor ponds is a challenge.

Creating a pond below the ground is in itself challenge, as is cleaning it. Stock tanks can easily be siphoned, but ponds below ground can't be siphoned as easily because the end taking in water is lower than the end letting it out.

 

[Wayfarin]

I have 300 gallon turtle tubs and you have to keep the water level below the edge a ways to keep the turtles in, also makes it hard for frogs to escape easily.

What about floating plants, like water lilies? Maybe the frogs could use floating plants to escape the pond. Many frogs can sit on floating plants, but turtles would probably sink.