UPDATE on Pond cycle

[Lisaebetten]

Its hard to read people chewing other people out. peeps are getting to emotionally involved


I thought Dave's response was short with temper also. In fact I don't even ask some questions because I don't want to get chew on, I just search for hours on the topic. Calvin has ever right to search several forms and cross reference information without getting chewed on. From what I am gathering some forums can be intolerable to some and that is what I am hearing is different about this forum, correct?
I don't know what Calvins true age is but his profile says 19 (Yes this could be false as I am 87 on my profile) and if he lives in America he has rights to education from any area he wants.
At least Calvin is searching info out and not just winging it, well maybe he is. Many do, I remember owning my first indoor tank YEARS ago and yeah, some fish died.
Maybe it's Dave's great love for the fish that made him sound harsh.

Yes I realize I will probably get chewed on for my opinion.

 

[JohnHuff]

Its hard to read people chewing other people out. peeps are getting to emotionally involved

It's an internet forum, it happens.
When I was a noob, I tried different forums. I found this one to be the most friendly and that's why I stayed here.
That might not have been the best reply but Dave is a good guy and he's trying to help.

 

[Lisaebetten]

Looks like another bottled bacteria thread. With all those bottles of "bacteria" Calvin has dumped in his pond you'd think it would be right as rain by now.

What we need here is a good old bottled bacteria burning heck I have no idea, well I do now. I will laugh for the rest of my living days whenever I think of good bacteria. If I get dementia I will probably be muttering about bacteria that lives in bottles to my nurses!!!!

 

[Calvin]

So hard to read.. But everything seems to be going in place? I know that nitrate isn't zero that dark yellow..

 

[Calvin]

Its hard to read people chewing other people out. peeps are getting to emotionally involved


I thought Dave's response was short with temper also. In fact I don't even ask some questions because I don't want to get chew on, I just search for hours on the topic. Calvin has ever right to search several forms and cross reference information without getting chewed on. From what I am gathering some forums can be intolerable to some and that is what I am hearing is different about this forum, correct?
I don't know what Calvins true age is but his profile says 19 (Yes this could be false as I am 87 on my profile) and if he lives in America he has rights to education from any area he wants.
At least Calvin is searching info out and not just winging it, well maybe he is. Many do, I remember owning my first indoor tank YEARS ago and yeah, some fish died.
Maybe it's Dave's great love for the fish that made him sound harsh.

Thank you for sticking up. But I don't find it offsensive just him helping a fellow member. My point of view when you search google options come up. ( different forum ).. I want to learn more and more, Dave and everyone has been a big help.. But a mind can do so much. Yes I am 19. I came Into this hobby to experience the breeding of koi. I am not capable of doing so unless I learn and read.

 

[Calvin]

@Calvin - I didn't see if you answered this, but what color is your water? Most common will be either green or a dark tea color. Have you added any live plants? Logs? Rocks?

I think you mentioned that you ran one of the filters on the old pond... How long did it run before you moved it to the new pond? Did you take any of the filter media from the old pond and put it in the new filters? If you did any of this, you have already transferred more bacteria to your pond than you will receive in any bottles you buy from a store. At that point there's no need to add anything else to the pond. Oh, and as mentioned, that brown film that the store scraped from their pond liner is not bacteria... its nothing more than common algae. There *may* be a very minute amount of bacteria growing with the algae, but essentially what the store did was just give you a bag of dirt, and it will do you just as much good as if you had thrown in a handful of dirt from your yard.

Now for a little knowledge in what is happening... Every new body of water has to establish a cycle, and this cycle usually won't hurt the fish unless something disrupts it. First you start with ammonia from the fish waste, and you will see that start to appear on your daily tests. This causes bacteria to grow which converts the ammonia to nitrites. The nitrites then grow new bacteria which converts nitrites into nitrates. All of these bacteria are what you want in your pond, but even if you never add any, they will still show up. They exist on leaves and birds and everything else that comes in contact with your pond, so don't worry so much about adding every bottle of bacteria you can find, it really won't help. Once you have all the different types of bacteria active, the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate all balance each other out... they are still there, but they all work together to clean your water.

Now, you asked before about why you would only do a 10% water change, and not change out a lot more if your ammonia is really high. Well first off, what do you consider "high"? I wouldn't even think about it unless your levels get up above 2.0 or 3.0. If you're still at 0.25, its pretty normal. However let's imagine you decided to do a 50% water change because you thought your ammonia was too high. When you replace 50% of the water, you have taken away half of the food source (the ammonia) from the new bacteria you are trying to grow, so suddenly a lot of that bacteria dies. And dead bacteria means higher ammonia, so by doing too large a water change, you have made your problem even worse! The best course of action is to keep monitoring your levels, but do not change anything until the pond has fully cycled. That also means quit adding new fish! You say all these people are suddenly offering to give you fish... if they have the fish now, there is now reason why they can't wait a week or two before giving them to you. Your pond is in a delicate stage right now, and every time you add more fish increases the chances that you are going to kill ALL of them. You've already pushed your luck, and if you don't screw up any more you might pull through. Yes, adding just one more fish right now could make the difference, and you may wake up tomorrow with all of your fish dead.

I originally asked about the water color, because that tells you a lot too. The dark tea color usually comes from logs or dead plants, and won't hurt the fish. If you water is green (and it will be soon enough), don't make the mistake of trying to clean up up by dumping even more chemicals in the water. In the early stages of the water cycle, algae is going to suddenly grow like crazy (algae bloom). Your water is going to be bright green, and you won't be able to see your fish. This stage is going to last for a long time, probably a month or two. This is also part of the natural cycle! The algae is feeding on the sudden surplus of nitrates in the water that the bacteria are creating, and when you see the bright green it means that your pond is doing good and may be past the danger zone to your fish. You should see this within the first couple weeks of your pond running. Have patience, the algae will eventually find a balance, and suddenly one day your water will be crystal clear. This also happens to most people every Spring because the bacteria and algae start growing as the water warms up. Just have patience, because once your pond clears up from the algae bloom, it means the water has reached a good balance and your fish are safe. NOW is the time when it is safe to start adding a few more fish. I would never add more than 3-4 fish per week, even after your pond is balanced. Give the bacteria time to adjust to the additional fish. And finally, if your water is any other color than green or tea, you probably have contaminants... Dirt, dirty sand or rocks, maybe something used to pot some plants. There's not much you can do about this except give it a couple weeks for the dirt to settle.

To be honest, I have no idea I just can't distinguish the color.. But I would lean towards the tea color.
Yes, I have 2 plotted lilies. I have maybe 10-15 large pebbles. Those stream rocks nothing huge or anything..

The old filter used padding a while I think the new filter is a biological.

I cycled the old pond water with the new filter to get it started. Both filters are running all old pond water is in the pond.

The fish store didn't scrap off their liner. What they did was open those filters they have, then doing so dumping and shaping everything inside the filter into a bag with oxygen.

I do not plan to add any fish. Actually I won't. But something does happen, I did keep my old pond water running filled. So if it's needed that's there.

I haven't been feeding them latey and my lilies are being devoured.
But besides that it's not green.. It looks like a yellowish so I'm guessing that's the tea color.

When I first introduced the first fish and plant no cloudiness happened. But the moment I transfer the old filter and water and fish the next day that's when it changed color.

The fish seem active none are stressed.. I seen 3 flash.. ( none never flashed before ) same dealer also.
So I'm guessing it's just the cycle that is causing them to flash? They don't flash and then show any sign the flash and continue on swimming together. I have only seen 3 same ones do so.

 

[Dave 54]

Im sorry but that just isn't true. If the ammonia level is 3 PPM that means the bacteria have not been able to consume 3 ppm of the ammonia that is being produced. If you do a 50% change, there will still be 1.5 ppm that they were not able to consume. Not a problem. Let me put it another way. If you had a pizza for dinner, left 3 uneaten on your plate, and I took away 1.5 pieces, there would still be 1.5 pieces of pizza on your plate that you did not eat. Did you starve? Nope, there was still extra food.

Yes but if you dont let the Ammoina build up and spike along with the Nitrite we'll stiill be here ay Christmas my friend >LOL , he needs now to hold his nerve check his parameters daily until he see's the spikes then all will be well.
The complicating matter is he topped the pond up with koi when the advice given was to wait until the pond was cycled

Yes I realize I will probably get chewed on for my opinion.

Not at all Lisa why on earth sould I do that, the reason why you shouldnt go leaping about the interrnet forums is a rather simple and sound one, it's because of conflicting information each will give,(sometimes down right wrong)...
especially when you are new to the hobby as Calvn is.
Personally I wish it was made law that when a person buys fish for the first time upon entering the hobby, then they should also buy a book on how to keep and maintain the fishes health and its enviroment at the same time that way we wouldnt be having half the problems we see on forums.
Part of what was said to Calvin on Koiphen was the fish are sacrificial and it was fine for them to die"DUH" the numbnuts who said that wanted to condem to death the fish Calvin stocked the pond with when he was told not to (all of them koi) so please excuse me for caring .
I happen to believe you can cycle a pond and not loose your sacrificial fish in the mean time .
What gives us the right to condem them to death they have a right to live just like we do .
The art of keeping fish is to keep the alive , how old are your oldest fish ?.... our oldest are 27+ years old.
I would be gutted if they died as they are pets, pets who happen to have an 80+ year life span, you'd do your upmost to keep a parrot alive wouldnt you (they live to the same age).
Now if you didnt the RSPCA here in the UK would be breathing down your neck with a police officer in tow, next stop the Judge,
Its also the same for fish we have a duty of care and again if we didnt we'd end up before the judge .
Now under the new animal welfare bill brought in by Parliament in the UK you have to prove that duty of care ....
That is my reasoning I think you'd agree yes Lisa, or am I wrong and you can happily without any thought for your fish let them die and just replace them when it happens ?

Dave

 

[Mmathis]

Yes I realize I will probably get chewed on for my opinion.

No chewing.

Everyone has a right to his/her opinions..... Nothing wrong with opinions. But it's when people start attacking those opinions that it crosses the line. If peeps would just read them, but NOT respond by attacking.....

 

[dieselplower]

Calvin you had asked about the colors of your test kits. A lot of people seem to have troube reading them, including me at times. If you could stand them up vertically it will help. It does look like you have about .5 ammonia and some nitrate. Do you also have a nitrite test kit?

 

[dieselplower]

No chewing.

Everyone has a right to his/her opinions..... Nothing wrong with opinions. But it's when people start attacking those opinions that it crosses the line. If peeps would just read them, but NOT respond by attacking.....

It would be a lot better if people based their comments on facts, rather than opinions. I personally dont care what someones opinion is and it is very true that a persons opinion can be flat out wrong, in which case, they need to be corrected.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

It would be a lot better if people based their comments on facts, rather than opinions. I personally dont care what someones opinion is and it is very true that a persons opinion can be flat out wrong, in which case, they need to be corrected.

Actually opinions are one thing, but these water gardening forums are full of myths and misconceptions being spouted as facts. Just trying to expose the holes in a few of them seems like an impossible task.

 

[dieselplower]

Actually opinions are one thing, but these water gardening forums are full of myths and misconceptions being spouted as facts. Just trying to expose the holes in a few of them seems like an impossible task.

OK you have a good point there. I was considering opinions/myths/blatant incorrect info to be about all the same.

 

[Lisaebetten]

Yes but if you dont let the Ammoina build up and spike along with the Nitrite we'll stiill be here ay Christmas my friend >LOL , he needs now to hold his nerve check his parameters daily until he see's the spikes then all will be well.
The complicating matter is he topped the pond up with koi when the advice given was to wait until the pond was cycled

Not at all Lisa why on earth sould I do that, the reason why you shouldnt go leaping about the interrnet forums is a rather simple and sound one, it's because of conflicting information each will give,(sometimes down right wrong)...
especially when you are new to the hobby as Calvn is.
Personally I wish it was made law that when a person buys fish for the first time upon entering the hobby, then they should also buy a book on how to keep and maintain the fishes health and its enviroment at the same time that way we wouldnt be having half the problems we see on forums.
Part of what was said to Calvin on Koiphen was the fish are sacrificial and it was fine for them to die"DUH" the numbnuts who said that wanted to condem to death the fish Calvin stocked the pond with when he was told not to (all of them koi) so please excuse me for caring .
I happen to believe you can cycle a pond and not loose your sacrificial fish in the mean time .
What gives us the right to condem them to death they have a right to live just like we do .
The art of keeping fish is to keep the alive , how old are your oldest fish ?.... our oldest are 27+ years old.
I would be gutted if they died as they are pets, pets who happen to have an 80+ year life span, you'd do your upmost to keep a parrot alive wouldnt you (they live to the same age).
Now if you didnt the RSPCA here in the UK would be breathing down your neck with a police officer in tow, next stop the Judge,
Its also the same for fish we have a duty of care and again if we didnt we'd end up before the judge .
Now under the new animal welfare bill brought in by Parliament in the UK you have to prove that duty of care ....
That is my reasoning I think you'd agree yes Lisa, or am I wrong and you can happily without any thought for your fish let them die and just replace them when it happens ?

Dave

Dave I don't even want to put in my 2 goldies, to cycle my pond, they are mine and I've had these for 9 months. I am settling my mind on some rosy reds as I feel their purpose is temporary for their cycle on earth, but if they make it I'm happy to have them and trap door snails, plants. I have bacteria from my indoor tanks and will get the microbe lift stuff. I'm a week away yet so I will review when the time comes. I get to over whelmed so I have to take small steps.

I hate to compare fish and human babies but well........same application. Some people shouldn't have babies for the sake of the childs well being.

 

[Shdwdrgn]

So hard to read.. But everything seems to be going in place? I know that nitrate isn't zero that dark yellow..

Yeah your colors look good. As mentioned above, please also show us your nitrite readings, if you can? Remember that nitrite will show up before nitrate, and once you start seeing the nitrite coming up, it is probably safe to give your fish a little food. Your ammonia level is perfectly fine. The water color is probably just from being a new pond setup, however just be aware that the pea-green WILL be coming soon. Keep in mind that patience is the best solution, and while your pond might look like crap this year, next Summer everything will be settled in and the water will be clear again.

When trying to read the colors, I usually lay the tube right on top of the white strip along the edges, and hold the card and tube to where the light is behind me and shining straight down on the card. With the white background, its slightly easier to try and match the colors.

The fish flashing could be from any number of things, but considering your tests looks fine, I would guess they are simply stressed from the move and still getting used to their new home. One thing you can do to help with stress is giving them some hiding places, like large flower pots that will sink to the bottom.

@diesel -- Yes it is true that 3ppm represents uneaten food for the bacteria, but at this stage you are trying to grow bacteria as fast as possible, and if you take away a large percentage of that food supply, you also take away the opportunity for the bacteria to grow and multiply. Just because the ammonia hasn't been consumed right now, doesn't mean that it won't be used up in 12 hours. Considering that even in a pond the typical cycle only takes a few days, if you mess with the food supply by doing large water changes then of course you are going to slow down the entire process. I've read reports that bacteria can double in as little as every 20-30 minutes once conditions are right, so I imagine you would see changes in the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate level even if you checked every few hours. Using your pizza analogy, I may not be starving but in an hour I might have two children who are looking for food.

 

[Shdwdrgn]

Dave I don't even want to put in my 2 goldies, to cycle my pond, they are mine and I've had these for 9 months. I am settling my mind on some rosy reds as I feel their purpose is temporary for their cycle on earth, but if they make it I'm happy to have them and trap door snails, plants. I have bacteria from my indoor tanks and will get the microbe lift stuff. I'm a week away yet so I will review when the time comes. I get to over whelmed so I have to take small steps.

Lisa -- rosies are awesome! I have around 75-100 in my pond, and yes most of them are in such poor condition from the store that they don't survive, but the ones who do are great fun to watch! They have their own style of spawning, completely different from the goldfish. However another method of cycling the pond is to just throw in extra fish food. We do this in our aquariums when we set up a new one... even if there are no fish to eat it, the food will still break down and create some ammonia in the water, which helps start the cycle and makes for less of a shock when you do start adding fish. This isn't a substitute for adding fish, but it can help kick-start the process.