Very bad fin rot not responding to treatment

[Bridget]

Please help. My pond has been fine for ages, then my new gardeners cleaned out the sump next to my pond sending all the muck into it. At the same time I was ill with a bad virus so didn't get out to the pond for two weeks and we had very hot weather. Bad combination of clogged up filter, fertiliser from the garden, hot weather causing algae growth and me not seeing it. Went out and many of my fish had tail rot. Here's what I have tried based on advice given:

Backwashed the filter about 13 times until the water was cleaner (I can't get the top off to clean out the sponges) and then added new bacteria in
Potassium permanganate - did this twice, but water went brown straight away, i didn't know that the stresscoat/water conditioners apparently deactivate it.
Daily melafix
Antibiotic food from the vet

Kept testing and ammonia kept skyrocketing so I was told to just "be the filter" while the good bacteria grows and I was testing the water twice a day and changing out water to dilute ammonia all while adding a few different brands of bacteria into the pond. Added a second filter and two extra bubblers too.

Fish weren't getting better; one was getting worse. They were still chasing each other about trying to breed though so I added lots of plastic plants to slow them down and give them hiding spots. Started doing hourly long daily baths in antibiotics in a separate pond for the sick ones.

Two days in, water was crystal clear, all fish but one were getting better. Have removed him two days ago and he is now in a hospital tank and looking better.

However today I went out and one fish, Spot, is looking very bad. Part of his tail fell off when I put him in the antibiotic bath.

I have set his hospital tank up now. The rot has gone up his tail and is in the base of his tail now :-(

Not sure what else I can do. I just read that antibiotics don't work with a high ph (the vet didn't mention that, he tested the water so I would have thought he would have said it if it were true right?)

Please help. He's now losing scales too.

 

[WaterGardener]

Sorry to hear that your fish aren't doing well.

What antibiotic are you using? Is this something that the vet recommended doing?

What are your current water testing results? Are you testing for KH.

Clear water has nothing to do with healthy water. Often, maybe even always, green water is much better for the fish.

There are only two brands of beneficial bacteria that have the correct types of bacteria for filters. They are live bacteria and are expensive. They also have to be shipped cool and overnight, so that adds to the cost. They don't live long sealed up.

The bacteria you buy from a store are not the ones you need for establishing a filter colony. The ones that work need food (ammonia), air, and the right temperature to survive. None of that is found in a sealed bottle sitting on the shelf, except maybe temperature.

Are you using Prime to bind the ammonia and nitrite? Water changes help, but they can only reduce the toxins by the percentage of the water change. So if you change 20% of the water, it only reduces the toxin by that same 20%, and that is very temporary since the fish are constantly producing more.

Please keep binding those toxins with Prime. And remember to keep the dosage up when doing water changes.

Most problems are the result of poor water conditions. Things can't improve if your water is still contaminated with toxins. All the treatment in the world can't work if the water isn't good. Always fix the water first!

 

[Mgessert]

Sometimes the damage has been done and you just have to continue treating until it’s recovered or not. I’m assuming that you’ve corrected the initial water quality issues. That was a perfect storm of bad luck.

 

[Lisak1]

Oh how sad... sometimes I fear it may just be too late. Water quality is something that can really go bad fast, and it sounds like your fish were subjected to a host of problems. (By the way - don't ever consider algae to be one of the problems... that was nature's way of trying to make things right).

Any toxin in the water - like fertilizers - can only be rectified with new water. You can try to dilute it a little at a time, but if it's a big dose you may have to completely change it out and hope for the best. And you won't see toxins on a standard water test.

Rather than relying on someone else to test your water, I would suggest you get your own test kit. As for the antibiotics not working in a high pH - if the fish are eating the medicated food, then the pH of the water won't matter. It may still be harmful to the fish if it's too high though.

Sorry. Wish there was more that could be said to help. But honestly if I had a fish that was losing body parts, I'd just let it go.

 

[WaterGardener]

I am using toxin to refer to high ammonia and high nitrite levels. After all, they are toxic in the right amounts.

Toxins can come in many forms. Even too much heat or cold can be toxic.

 

[Lisak1]

Correct - I was referring specifically to the fertilizer the OP mentioned. You can't really do much more than empty the pond at that point.

 

[Laaf]

I had a fish lose its tail to the base, and it has grown back completely. They can recover once they start to heal. I am sorry for the stress. I did not discover any water issues in my case. I isolated the 2 fish with issues and treated them in a separate tank with an all purpose treatment plus salt that seemed to help.

 

[GBBUDD]

Sorry to hear that your fish aren't doing well.

What antibiotic are you using? Is this something that the vet recommended doing?

What are your current water testing results? Are you testing for KH.

Clear water has nothing to do with healthy water. Often, maybe even always, green water is much better for the fish.

There are only two brands of beneficial bacteria that have the correct types of bacteria for filters. They are live bacteria and are expensive. They also have to be shipped cool and overnight, so that adds to the cost. They don't live long sealed up.

The bacteria you buy from a store are not the ones you need for establishing a filter colony. The ones that work need food (ammonia), air, and the right temperature to survive. None of that is found in a sealed bottle sitting on the shelf, except maybe temperature.

Are you using Prime to bind the ammonia and nitrite? Water changes help, but they can only reduce the toxins by the percentage of the water change. So if you change 20% of the water, it only reduces the toxin by that same 20%, and that is very temporary since the fish are constantly producing more.

Please keep binding those toxins with Prime. And remember to keep the dosage up when doing water changes.

Most problems are the result of poor water conditions. Things can't improve if your water is still contaminated with toxins. All the treatment in the world can't work if the water isn't good. Always fix the water first!

All to often people try to reach for a bottle to fix there issues it's kinda like when a person has a rough day and they pick up a bottle and drink there sorrows away. Does it fix the problem usually no it just makes us feel better. The manufacturers will sell us what ever we will buy. Kinda like the covid shot at first it was you won't get covid with the shot. Nor will you spread it to another. Then it was well you can be a carrier and still give it to others. Then we got , and we got and we got over and over what ever sell worked to keep us buying the fix. Same with all the pet trades products there is alot of exaggerated sales pitches out there.

The best fix is a well balanced system . Not over loading the pond with fish . Not over feeding and cleaning your filters regularly. But regularly will differ different times of the year. Like in the early spring when everything comes to life again.

In the spring and in the fall your routine maintenance will usually need more attention. Then come the dog days of summer usually you need half as much maintenance but it switches to weeding around the pond.
I would not believe how many gph your filter manufacturer says their system is good for. I look at, at least 1/3 of there claim to be more accurate. So if they say they are good for 6000 gallons I'd say it's best you not exceed 4000.

The other is do you have MECHANICAL AS WELL AS BIOLOGICAL in your filters. Or do you need one of both.

The other sometimes issue is how is the water supply your using . If it is not great than your pond won't be either.

 

[GBBUDD]

Oh how sad... sometimes I fear it may just be too late. Water quality is something that can really go bad fast, and it sounds like your fish were subjected to a host of problems. (By the way - don't ever consider algae to be one of the problems... that was nature's way of trying to make things right).

Any toxin in the water - like fertilizers - can only be rectified with new water. You can try to dilute it a little at a time, but if it's a big dose you may have to completely change it out and hope for the best. And you won't see toxins on a standard water test.

Rather than relying on someone else to test your water, I would suggest you get your own test kit. As for the antibiotics not working in a high pH - if the fish are eating the medicated food, then the pH of the water won't matter. It may still be harmful to the fish if it's too high though.

Sorry. Wish there was more that could be said to help. But honestly if I had a fish that was losing body parts, I'd just let it go.

Some times it is a loosing battle trying to save them all. I have had some fish that just never stopped having an issue. While everyone else had no issues. It's like us , a buddy of mines wife has been bed ridden for over 20 years. It takes her a half hour to cross the hall to get to the bathroom.
Some folks are just much healthier than others. Fish are no different.

If your not using stress coat or start right you may want to I know I talk about running to the bottle but this is to boost the immune system . The slime coat of the fish. All ponds have parasites its the health of the pond and its condition is weather or not those parasites and bacterial infections get the better of your pond.

 

[Bridget]

Sorry to hear that your fish aren't doing well.

What antibiotic are you using? Is this something that the vet recommended doing?

What are your current water testing results? Are you testing for KH.

Clear water has nothing to do with healthy water. Often, maybe even always, green water is much better for the fish.

There are only two brands of beneficial bacteria that have the correct types of bacteria for filters. They are live bacteria and are expensive. They also have to be shipped cool and overnight, so that adds to the cost. They don't live long sealed up.

The bacteria you buy from a store are not the ones you need for establishing a filter colony. The ones that work need food (ammonia), air, and the right temperature to survive. None of that is found in a sealed bottle sitting on the shelf, except maybe temperature.

Are you using Prime to bind the ammonia and nitrite? Water changes help, but they can only reduce the toxins by the percentage of the water change. So if you change 20% of the water, it only reduces the toxin by that same 20%, and that is very temporary since the fish are constantly producing more.

Please keep binding those toxins with Prime. And remember to keep the dosage up when doing water changes.

Most problems are the result of poor water conditions. Things can't improve if your water is still contaminated with toxins. All the treatment in the world can't work if the water isn't good. Always fix the water first!

Hi

Thank you for helping. I've just started testing for KH/GH and my results from the tap are: 4dKH and approx 70

I am using Prime and checking nitrates and ammonia twice a day and changing water if needed.

I am using some antibiotics that the vet gave me (daily baths) and now I'm trying blue plant tri sulfa.

I'm in Australia, I'll have to hunt down some good bacteria!

Any advice is appreciated!

 

[Bridget]

Some times it is a loosing battle trying to save them all. I have had some fish that just never stopped having an issue. While everyone else had no issues. It's like us , a buddy of mines wife has been bed ridden for over 20 years. It takes her a half hour to cross the hall to get to the bathroom.
Some folks are just much healthier than others. Fish are no different.

If your not using stress coat or start right you may want to I know I talk about running to the bottle but this is to boost the immune system . The slime coat of the fish. All ponds have parasites its the health of the pond and its condition is weather or not those parasites and bacterial infections get the better of your pond.

Yes I'm using Stress coat and I've also done salt baths to help with their slime coat. Cross fingers for me!

 

[Bridget]

All to often people try to reach for a bottle to fix there issues it's kinda like when a person has a rough day and they pick up a bottle and drink there sorrows away. Does it fix the problem usually no it just makes us feel better. The manufacturers will sell us what ever we will buy. Kinda like the covid shot at first it was you won't get covid with the shot. Nor will you spread it to another. Then it was well you can be a carrier and still give it to others. Then we got , and we got and we got over and over what ever sell worked to keep us buying the fix. Same with all the pet trades products there is alot of exaggerated sales pitches out there.

The best fix is a well balanced system . Not over loading the pond with fish . Not over feeding and cleaning your filters regularly. But regularly will differ different times of the year. Like in the early spring when everything comes to life again.

In the spring and in the fall your routine maintenance will usually need more attention. Then come the dog days of summer usually you need half as much maintenance but it switches to weeding around the pond.
I would not believe how many gph your filter manufacturer says their system is good for. I look at, at least 1/3 of there claim to be more accurate. So if they say they are good for 6000 gallons I'd say it's best you not exceed 4000.

The other is do you have MECHANICAL AS WELL AS BIOLOGICAL in your filters. Or do you need one of both.

The other sometimes issue is how is the water supply your using . If it is not great than your pond won't be either.

My water has been fine for years and I clean my pond and care for my fish a LOT. This isn't a result of me not caring, it's a result of some gardeners dumping soil into my filter while I was sick in bed coughing up blood with a virus all while we had a heatwave and someone else was feeding the fish for me.

 

[Bridget]

Oh how sad... sometimes I fear it may just be too late. Water quality is something that can really go bad fast, and it sounds like your fish were subjected to a host of problems. (By the way - don't ever consider algae to be one of the problems... that was nature's way of trying to make things right).

Any toxin in the water - like fertilizers - can only be rectified with new water. You can try to dilute it a little at a time, but if it's a big dose you may have to completely change it out and hope for the best. And you won't see toxins on a standard water test.

Rather than relying on someone else to test your water, I would suggest you get your own test kit. As for the antibiotics not working in a high pH - if the fish are eating the medicated food, then the pH of the water won't matter. It may still be harmful to the fish if it's too high though.

Sorry. Wish there was more that could be said to help. But honestly if I had a fish that was losing body parts, I'd just let it go.

Yep I've done a HUGE water change and backwashed the filter until it was clean. I have my own test kit and I'm testing all the parameters and learning how they interact

 

[Lisak1]

@Bridget how big is your pond? How many fish and what kind?

 

[WaterGardener]

You need to get the KH up. It keeps your pH from bouncing around, stressing the fish and it will help get the beneficial bacteria established.

I use baking soda to raise the KH, one cup for every 1,000 gallons. I suspect it is even lower in your pond than your tap water.

Start slowly since it may also raise the pH. But if your pH is around 8, you can add as much baking soda as you need to increase the KH to at least 100ppm or a minimum of at 6 to 8 drops. Higher is not a problem and I try to keep the KH in my pond around 200ppm and the pH stays at 8.2 or 8.3. Unless your water is unusual, the baking soda, even in large quantities, will not raise it above 8.3.

You will need to add baking soda with every water change to maintain that level.

You really don't need to add any bacteria. It is everywhere. You just need to provide the right conditions for it to grow--the right temperature, pH that is not acidic, food (ammonia from the fish), a good KH, a place for it to grow, and air. If you have those elements, the only other thing the bacteria needs is time to get established
and grow enough in numbers to take care of the water being produced.

So sorry you and your fish are going through this. Totally not your fault.