Water Changes

[Meyer Jordan]

That's funny, after I posted my last comment I kept searching a bit typing nitrate and trickle tower in my search and finally came across that one article you linked to. I had no doubt that you were basing your comments on something. However, as interesting as that article is, it in no way proves that the sole purpose of a "trickle tower filter" is to remove Nitrates. Perhaps that may be the sole purpose of that very specialized nitrate reducing trickle tower design, but I don't see how why it gives this one very specialized design all inclusive rights to the term "trickle tower".

I have been around long enough to remember when this "specialized design" (as you term it) was the only design (and function) for a Trickle Tower. Everything else that you see on the web are DIY 'corruptions' of the original design and purpose.
Regardless, THIS is the configuration that is needed to reduce Nitrate levels in a pond.
Debating semantics/terminology as relates to ponds is a exercise in futility. There are those that are going to call a whale a fish no matter what!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Here is a link to a DIY upflow system that, in theory, should work.

A simple to build Nitrate Filter

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Debating semantics/terminology as relates to ponds is a exercise in futility.

I readily agree with that one. But keep in mind is was you're first exercising that debate on semantics by empathetic stating that trickle tower filters and Bakki showers are totally different things that pulled me in in the first place. There is likely know way to figure out exactly who first coined the word "trickle tower", nor is there a way to completely separate the terms "trickle tower" from "trickle Filter". But I'm betting that most people involved in the world of water filtration and treatment are going to understand a trickle tower as an oxygen utilizing filter similar to a Bakki shower.

If we can put that debate away for a while I would rather discuss the function of that nitrate reducing trickle tower design, I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask you about it since you seem to be familiar with it.
But for right now I'm out of time, I must leave for work.

 

[Smaug]

lol

There's no such thing as a simple water change.

.

Simplest thing in the world. Water goes out water goes in,,ezpz. No gadgets,no bog filter, no hocus pocus ,happy fish,garden and yard watered,well excersized.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

But keep in mind is was you're first exercising that debate on semantics by empathetic stating that trickle tower filters and Bakki showers are totally different things that pulled me in in the first place.

That's because in their original form and concept, they are!!
Like I said, and exercise in futility.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

That's because in their original form and concept, they are!!
Like I said, and exercise in futility.

It's not futility if something can be proven or reasoned on, however you'll need more convincing evidence than some bold underlined text and a couple exclamation points.

You say this design is the first application you remember of a trickle filter being used and it was anaerobic and used specificity for nitrate reduction, but how far back are we talking? because the first concept of aerobic trickle filtration, as used in waste water treatments facilities, goes back into the 1800s and likely there were various versions of aerobic towers/filters around a long time ago (like way before you were born) and well before that nitrate reducing filter came into use . I'm guessing that that anaerobic filter/tower design came much later (likely some time after you were born) when more sophisticated fish farming and keeping practices came into being, and this design was explored as a possible way of removing nitrates without doing water changes. I don't think it's very effective at that anyway since the water going through the device has to be so restricted to a literal "trickle" otherwise you'll be introducing too much oxygen into the chamber and destroying the anaerobic conditions that might exist. Also it's certainty not very popular from what I can tell.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

It's not futility if something can be proven or reasoned on, however you'll need more convincing evidence than some bold underlined text and a couple exclamation points.

You say this design is the first application you remember of a trickle filter being used and it was anaerobic and used specificity for nitrate reduction, but how far back are we talking? because the first concept of aerobic trickle filtration, as used in waste water treatments facilities, goes back into the 1800s and likely there were various versions of aerobic towers/filters around a long time ago (like way before you were born) and well before that nitrate reducing filter came into use . I'm guessing that that anaerobic filter/tower design came much later (likely some time after you were born) when more sophisticated fish farming and keeping practices came into being, and this design was explored as a possible way of removing nitrates without doing water changes. I don't think it's very effective at that anyway since the water going through the device has to be so restricted to a literal "trickle" otherwise you'll be introducing too much oxygen into the chamber and destroying the anaerobic conditions that might exist. Also it's certainty not very popular from what I can tell.

This design was the first to be used in a Koi pond application. Although large scale applications of different bioconversion methods may have been in use in Waste Water Treatment facilities in earlier times, manufactured pond filtration units were not available until the 1980's, any filtration units in place prior to this were strictly DIY and were hit and miss as to effectiveness and efficiency.
Commercial aquaculture as we know it today did not gain much attention until after World War II and did not really begin to grow until the 70's and 80's, about the same time that fish keeping as a hobby began to gain some interest, first in the UK and then in Europe and the U.S.A. What you refer to as "sophisticated fish farming and keeping practices" had their birth during this time period. Well after I was born (1941). In fact, very little was known about the role of bacteria in the Nitrogen cycle before this time.
But back to the subject..Trickle Towers. I can't attest to the present popularity of use due to the use of this term to describe all manner of filtration systems. What I can attest to is that it does work. In designing my pond, I incorporated soil filled areas that would be subject to an extremely low flow rate in order to create anaerobic conditions such as those found in nature around the perimeter of all ponds, lakes, streams and rivers. As a result, even with a very high fish load Nitrate levels have never exceeded 10 mg/L at any time of the year. This same bacterial action is recreated in true Trickle Towers.

 

[sissy]

Wondering what do you think of all this new stuff to filter ponds ,like the helix is it the future or just a fad for now .Does it have it's place or just a waste of money .I know they are extremely expensive and not even close to my pocket book budget .

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Commercial aquaculture as we know it today did not gain much attention until after World War II and did not really begin to grow until the 70's and 80's, about the same time that fish keeping as a hobby began to gain some interest, first in the UK and then in Europe and the U.S.A. What you refer to as "sophisticated fish farming and keeping practices" had their birth during this time period. Well after I was born (1941). In fact, very little was known about the role of bacteria in the Nitrogen cycle before this time.

Your estimates about when people first started understanding the role of bacteria and nitrogen cycle are a little off.
Almost everything we know about biological filtration processes for fish keeping had it's origins in waste water treatment. Treating waste water also deals with the nitrogen cycle, only on a much larger and more impacting scale.

"Dr. Alexander Mueller's demonstration in 1865 that sewage could be purified by living organisms in a filtration column "

" 1875 - 1900 : Following upon the singular work by Mueller over a decade earlier, several researchers successively explored the microbial aspect of sewage purification. Five years later, Warrington confirmed that sterilized solutions lost their nitrifying ability until inoculated by fresh soil. And in 1890, Winogradsky succeeded in identifying Nitrosomonas bacteria."

" In 1893, J. Corbett also employed a serial filter scheme, with an additional wooden trough to continuously distribute influent sewage across the bed. And in the same year, F. Wallis Stoddart reported on the use of a course media filter receiving a continuous, trickling flow. Of these two latter researchers, Corbett acknowledged the impetus and direction provided by the previous Lawrence findings. Stoddart, however, insisted that his work stemmed from Frankland's principles and that his continuously percolated units were the first of their kind. In either case, the trickling filter (tower?) had been conceived.

"Trickling filters were first introduced to the US in 1901 at Madison, Wisconsin."

http://web.deu.edu.tr/atiksu/ana52/ani4041.html

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Let me first say that obviously we are discussing two (2) different systems. I am fully aware of the trickling bed systems utilized in WWTS and that they are aerobic systems. The original Trickle Tower design bears little resemblance and is designed specifically to be anaerobic. In WWTS, similar results are obtained through the use of a UASB (Upflow anaerobic sludge blanket) reactor, also a completely different design. Interestingly, one can find DIY plans for a small scale UASB reactor on the internet.
If you want to debate history, we can do that on a different thread, but let's not cloud this discussion.


http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/good_water_guide__pt_16.html

and


Full System
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-62268.html

 

[Lisak1]

I love this thread. Discourse without disrespect. Rare in today's world, and especially on the Internet!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I love this thread. Discourse without disrespect. Rare in today's world, and especially on the Internet!

The difference between a discussion and an argument..

 

[EricV]

In practice, Meyer, what kind of flow rate do you get through your trickle tower and what is the size of your pond?

 

[bettasngoldfish]

Yep, but without stressing the fish.

So who says water changes cause stress to fish? Or should I say what scientific information tells us that fish undergo stress during a water change? I guess that is one thing that I am having a hard time accepting (as you probably already figured out)

 

[Meyer Jordan]

In practice, Meyer, what kind of flow rate do you get through your trickle tower and what is the size of your pond?

I do not have a Trickle Tower but rather a natural soil based planting area adjunct to the pond that supplies the anaerobic conditions needed. Very low flow rate...that is one of the main requirements as higher flow rates will provide unwanted Oxygen. Pond is ~4,400 gallons.