When should I add fish?

[bagsmom]

Hi all!

I'm here in the sunny south, where we've had a few cold snaps. The last frost date is usually mid-April. I've had the pond up and running for several weeks. There is some algae building up and the water is getting a lovely green (it was perfect for St. Patrick's Day.)

I know this new pond situation is normal and that getting a good balance of plants and fish will help everything settle in.

When should I add fish? I have a friend who has a pond. Her fish have reproduced, so she is eager to give me a couple. (I don't want to start with a lot of fish. I want to give them time and room to add to the population naturally.) Can I transfer outdoor fish now, since they are already used to the weather we've been having? I would think it wouldn't be smart to move indoor fish outside. But if they are outdoors already, seems like it might be OK?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

If you already have algae growing, you can add a couple of fish (small) to the pond with likely no issues. I would then wait approximately 4 weeks before adding more fish (two at a time). If you do not already have one, acquire a test kit. you will then be able to monitor the water quality. When Nitrate begins to appear in the test results, it is safe to add additional fish.

 

[carolinaguy]

Go for it. The two variables are ph and temperature. If the ph between the fishes present water and your pond are within 0.5 units of each other and the temperature of the two water bodies are within 5 degrees of each other, there should be no stress for the fish. Of course quarantine is the intermediate step, but that is your call as to how you deal with that. So if the ph readings are 7.2 and 7.6 and the water temperatures are 60 and 64, there should be no stress on the fish.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Go for it. The two variables are ph and temperature. If the ph between the fishes present water and your pond are within 0.5 units of each other and the temperature of the two water bodies are within 5 degrees of each other, there should be no stress for the fish. Of course quarantine is the intermediate step, but that is your call as to how you deal with that. So if the ph readings are 7.2 and 7.6 and the water temperatures are 60 and 64, there should be no stress on the fish.

Are you forgetting that this is a new pond with a non-cycled biofilter?


Fish can be added, but slowly in order to avoid Ammonia shock.

 

[bagsmom]

I will go slowwwwwww.

I figure I will let just a few fish have the run of the pond and they can add new "club members" naturally. I hate the idea of eventually having to cull. My hope is that nature will do it for me, in the form of raccoons and herons and such.
I'm very excited to add fish! Fun times!

 

[Faebinder]

You got a filter? Good then Meyers suggestion is solid. Or you can add one 6+ inch fish per week if you are willing to do water changes. If the fish are small, add number of fish that sums into a total of 6 inches in length.

 

[carolinaguy]

I just have to say that the guidance that you will suffer ammonia shock is fascinating. When I started up my current pond we put 28 full sized fish in a new pond with a newly installed set of two ultima II 6000 biofilters. We monitored the water daily and kept the ammonia levels below 1.0 ppm. If the ammonia levels rose a little we used products to minimize the impact of ammonia. We maintained weekly 10 percent water changes as is recommended for koi keeping. Not one fish developed a problem. The ammonia and nitrite profiles proceeded as per normal. I've been keeping koi for 15 years and have never seen this issue of ammonia shock. Never happened. My wife and I have developed far more creative ways of killing our fish, and ammonia shock isn't one of them. I've seen operations where the ammonia levels run constantly at 1.0 ppm with no problems for the fish who live in that water for up to three months. I've seen water that spiked to 4.0 ppm and stayed there for days without immediate death. That said high ammonia promotes mucus production and causes the gill lamellae to stick together restricting oxygen exchange. And long term exposure to high levels can scar gill tissue and erode gill arches. But 1.0 ppm is not high enough to do that. C'mon guys. The reason I wear this amulet is to chase away elephants, and it must work because I haven't seen an elephant around here for years.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I just have to say that the guidance that you will suffer ammonia shock is fascinating. When I started up my current pond we put 28 full sized fish in a new pond with a newly installed set of two ultima II 6000 biofilters. We monitored the water daily and kept the ammonia levels below 1.0 ppm. If the ammonia levels rose a little we used products to minimize the impact of ammonia. We maintained weekly 10 percent water changes as is recommended for koi keeping. Not one fish developed a problem. The ammonia and nitrite profiles proceeded as per normal. I've been keeping koi for 15 years and have never seen this issue of ammonia shock. Never happened. My wife and I have developed far more creative ways of killing our fish, and ammonia shock isn't one of them. I've seen operations where the ammonia levels run constantly at 1.0 ppm with no problems for the fish who live in that water for up to three months. I've seen water that spiked to 4.0 ppm and stayed there for days without immediate death. That said high ammonia promotes mucus production and causes the gill lamellae to stick together restricting oxygen exchange. And long term exposure to high levels can scar gill tissue and erode gill arches. But 1.0 ppm is not high enough to do that. C'mon guys. The reason I wear this amulet is to chase away elephants, and it must work because I haven't seen an elephant around here for years.

Yes, but by your own admission you applied external processes (ammonia neutalizers and water changes) to control the Ammonia levels.

And yes, Ammonia levels of 1.0 are not an issue providing that pH and temperatures are relatively low.

A little patience goes a long way when one is dealing with Nature, including ponds.

Any externally applied processes will have a certain level of negative effects on the aquatic environment regardless of what the manufacturers or folklore tells you.

 

[Faebinder]

Ammonia spike kills are not a myth. Water changes help. The size of the pond matters. The number of koi/goldfish matters and their sizes.

My fish are too valuable to risk an ammonia spike sickness. Others may not care or want to do other measures to reduce the spike.. I did water changes.

 

[Lisak1]

If the ammonia levels rose a little we used products to minimize the impact of ammonia.

If you weren't concerned about ammonia shock, then why were you treating to keep the ammonia under control?

 

[carolinaguy]

Yes, but by your own admission you applied external processes (ammonia neutalizers and water changes) to control the Ammonia levels.

And yes, Ammonia levels of 1.0 are not an issue providing that pH and temperatures are relatively low.

A little patience goes a long way when one is dealing with Nature, including ponds.

Any externally applied processes will have a certain level of negative effects on the aquatic environment regardless of what the manufacturers or folklore tells you.

By my own admission? You make the use of very effective water management tools sound like the testimony of a criminal in a prosecution. These are just tools for use in koi husbandry. Ph low? My water sits a 9.0 because it is lake water. That argument that ammonia in high ph will kill doesn't make sense in the face of actual experience.. Just another magic amulet argument. "A little patience goes a long way...." is just talking down to your audience. Now the other comment that faebinder made makes lots of sense. His fish are too valuable to risk. That is a value choice that anyone can respect. But roll out the aquaculture studies if there is such a thing as ammonia shock and, more importantly provide the threshold data. When is it shock? I can provide the threshold data for chronic chlorine exposure--0.245 ppm for 96 hours will kill 50 percent of the subject fish. There is a good study for that. Where that data is important is when a keeper uses a drip system with city water. The drip rate has to maintain the chlorine level below that threshold. O.125 ppm makes sense. But not using a drip system because there is some threat out there is amulet reasoning. And everything is a threat just like all anesthetics will kill you. It's not a matter of if but rather how much.

 

[carolinaguy]

If you weren't concerned about ammonia shock, then why were you treating to keep the ammonia under control?

I'm not worried about ammonia shock. I know from good research and observation that an ammonia level of 1.0 ppm will not harm fish. So keeping the level below that solves the problem. We never worry about ammonia because we control it at acceptable levels. Now we do not want 1.0 as a permanent feature of our water, but we also know from measurement that our water never gets below 0.125 ppm in the summer feeding months no matter what we do. So when some expert states as if it is gospel that the water should always measure 0.0 ppm, we know this expert is either just wrong or keeps koi in one of three types of pond -- watergarden, championship, or aquascapes, and the measurement standards for those pond types do not apply to ours, a display pond. I'm not worried, just informed.

 

[Lisak1]

I guess it's just confusing that you claim ammonia shock isn't a real thing and you've never had it happen in all your years of keeping koi - but if you are treating for rising ammonia, how COULD it happen? Do you think it would happen if you DIDN'T treat for high ammonia?

And if I understand your other point, you're saying that fish in different types of ponds can tolerate more or less ammonia, depending on the pond type. Is that due to filtration? Or what variable makes that possible?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

And long term exposure to high levels can scar gill tissue and erode gill arches. But 1.0 ppm is not high enough to do that.

And you know this how?

Just to clarify, no one except you has mentioned fish being killed, but there is widespread agreement between science and hobbyists that physiological damage and/or stress becomes more likely as Ammonia levels increase, especially Free Ammonia. Recovery will occur in many cases, but, depending on the level of toxicity, some damage is irreversible,
Yes the LC50 toxicity levels for both Koi and Goldfish are quite high but that is little justification for subjecting these fish to avoidable stress.
As usual, I prefer to rely on what the results of scientific research indicate rather than anecdotal evidence.

 

[Usman]

once upon a time i transferred fishes from old to new pond , they didnt have sudden problem , but few of them became weak or in stress , specially the oldest and smallest and they developed some diseases and died in week or so , i was not worried bcz i had alot of goldfishes i thought survival of the fittest .. but this was the story . The end