Beneficial Bacteria Question

[barryian]

Being my pond was maintained at 45F all winter, would I see a slight spike in the nitrites, being both nitrobacter and nitrosomonas have neither died off? My savio runs 24/7 ... 365 and I started the bead filter 2-1/2 weeks ago. I've been
feeding every few days as water temps were in the 55F - 62F range. Now every 2 days, basically MandaFu and wheatgerm pellets. My nitrites have remained at 0 and my ammonia was 0 until Monday when it was .25. I use Fritz Pond Ammonia Remover to bind the ammonia and it's been back at 0. It's not a concern as it's naturally accelerated respiration and feeding that caused it.
All said, once again, I'm wondering if I'd see that slight spike in nitrites since nitrosomonas and nitrobacter have never died off completely, but exist, just in low numbers. Is it only in new uncolonized ponds that the nitrite spike occurs since the nitrosomonas colonize first consuming ammonia and then the nitrobacter kick in consuming the nitrites playing their role in the nitrogen cycle ?
Thanks!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

This will depend entirely on the total area (sq.ft.) of all submerged surfaces and the total fish biomass in the pond. Under the circumstances described, with a low fish load no cycling is needed, but with a relatively high fish load the speed at which the bead filter cycles will determine both Ammonia and then Nitrite levels.

 

[CometKeith]

Barryian, My two cents: Everything I have read says that the majority of bb dies off below mid 50 degrees. Honestly I don't think you have much remaining and you will need to cycle your pond to get to satisfactory levels. I have a mature pond and it goes through a cycle every year. I don't feed my fish much until my pond cycles in order to keep nutrients and ammonia low. I have a question about why you keep it at 45 degrees in the winter. Is it because it is too shallow and you don't want it to freeze or is it some other reason? I have heard of ponds that were warmed all winter that resulted in diseased fish because the fish had very low resistance and they couldn't fight off bacteria that was active in the pond. I have never lost a fish in the winter. It's always in the spring with water temps between 45-60 degrees that have caused me the most trouble. I'm always happy to get through that period and by early May I'm in good shape when my pond cycles.

 

[Dave 54]

Barryian, My two cents: Everything I have read says that the majority of bb dies off below mid 50 degrees. Honestly I don't think you have much remaining and you will need to cycle your pond to get to satisfactory levels. I have a mature pond and it goes through a cycle every year. I don't feed my fish much until my pond cycles in order to keep nutrients and ammonia low. I have a question about why you keep it at 45 degrees in the winter. Is it because it is too shallow and you don't want it to freeze or is it some other reason? I have heard of ponds that were warmed all winter that resulted in diseased fish because the fish had very low resistance and they couldn't fight off bacteria that was active in the pond. I have never lost a fish in the winter. It's always in the spring with water temps between 45-60 degrees that have caused me the most trouble. I'm always happy to get through that period and by early May I'm in good shape when my pond cycles.

Same here Keith

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Barryian, My two cents: Everything I have read says that the majority of bb dies off below mid 50 degrees. Honestly I don't think you have much remaining and you will need to cycle your pond to get to satisfactory levels. I have a mature pond and it goes through a cycle every year. I don't feed my fish much until my pond cycles in order to keep nutrients and ammonia low. I have a question about why you keep it at 45 degrees in the winter. Is it because it is too shallow and you don't want it to freeze or is it some other reason? I have heard of ponds that were warmed all winter that resulted in diseased fish because the fish had very low resistance and they couldn't fight off bacteria that was active in the pond. I have never lost a fish in the winter. It's always in the spring with water temps between 45-60 degrees that have caused me the most trouble. I'm always happy to get through that period and by early May I'm in good shape when my pond cycles.

Growth of nitrifying bacteria and most nitrification is now known to stop at 5C/40F. At 10C/50F nitrification continues at 20% of optimum. Although this may appear troublesome at first sight, it is really in line with what is happening with fish at these same temperatures. Their metabolic rates are slowing. their respiration rate is decreasing and their Ammonia output is greatly reduced. So even though nitrification rates are lower, they are high enough to keep up with the Ammonia levels.

"Aerobic denitrification was seriously affected by low temperature (below 10C). However, nitrification rate remained high when the temperature dropped from 15C to 5C. It seemed the autotrophic biofilm could alleviate the adverse effect of low temperature"
Temperature effect of aerobic denitrification and nitrification
XIE Shu-guang. ZHANG Xiao-jian, WANG Zhan-sheng

 

[barryian]

Barryian, My two cents: Everything I have read says that the majority of bb dies off below mid 50 degrees. Honestly I don't think you have much remaining and you will need to cycle your pond to get to satisfactory levels. I have a mature pond and it goes through a cycle every year. I don't feed my fish much until my pond cycles in order to keep nutrients and ammonia low. I have a question about why you keep it at 45 degrees in the winter. Is it because it is too shallow and you don't want it to freeze or is it some other reason? I have heard of ponds that were warmed all winter that resulted in diseased fish because the fish had very low resistance and they couldn't fight off bacteria that was active in the pond. I have never lost a fish in the winter. It's always in the spring with water temps between 45-60 degrees that have caused me the most trouble. I'm always happy to get through that period and by early May I'm in good shape when my pond cycles.

@CometKeith ... I agree with some of what you said but, the BB doesn't completely die off until 32F. At 45F, it's safe to say, the counts are low but still there. If @Meyer Jordan sees this, there might be some more input. The lower the water temp, the more stress the fish are under. I also can't recall losing a fish during the winter and know that May can be the bad month of which I take precautions and watch carefully. I'm not really feeding much. If ammonia spiked, I'd stop. The pond nitrosomonas need ammonia to thrive and build. I know just the warm weather increases the ammonia just due to increased respiration. Feeding certainly in creases it further but feeding twice or maybe 3 tomes a week at 55 - 60F water temps have never been an issue. I usually go by water temps and not March vs April. any thoughts? Thx

btw - My load is quite low in comparison to filtration ... as an fyi ...

 

[Meyer Jordan]

The lower the water temp, the more stress the fish are under.

This might be an interesting subject for a different thread.

 

[barryian]

Growth of nitrifying bacteria and most nitrification is now known to stop at 5C/40F. At 10C/50F nitrification continues at 20% of optimum. Although this may appear troublesome at first sight, it is really in line with what is happening with fish at these same temperatures. Their metabolic rates are slowing. their respiration rate is decreasing and their Ammonia output is greatly reduced. So even though nitrification rates are lower, they are high enough to keep up with the Ammonia levels.

"Aerobic denitrification was seriously affected by low temperature (below 10C). However, nitrification rate remained high when the temperature dropped from 15C to 5C. It seemed the autotrophic biofilm could alleviate the adverse effect of low temperature"
Temperature effect of aerobic denitrification and nitrification
XIE Shu-guang. ZHANG Xiao-jian, WANG Zhan-sheng

So @Meyer Jordan, there is no definitive answer re: seeing nitrites at all when testing? ( In my case ) ... and also as CometKeith had mentioned, is keeping my winter temps above 40F a detriment? I never really had a problem going into spring and summer and I was under the impression, this would cause less stress than 32-34F .... which in turn would keep their immune systems in better shape for this time of year .... thank you ...

 

[barryian]

This might be an interesting subject for a different thread.

How do we change the thread ... unfamiliar???

 

[Meyer Jordan]

is keeping my winter temps above 40F a detriment?

I really can not see any downside to heating a pond during winter months(assuming temperatures will be relatively stable). Nature does it every year in my area!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

How do we change the thread ... unfamiliar???

New thread.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

New thread.

I will start a new thread for this conversation

 

[CometKeith]

oh, I see the new thread but my point about heating possibly being bad was not about stress in particular. I think it related more to this topic and the prevalence of good or bad bacteria. I know of a very large pond in the Chicago area of about 40,000 gallons that was maintained by a professional pond keeper. The pond was heated in the winter to something like 60 degrees or more and the majority of the 100 or so Koi in the pond became diseased and many of the fish where lost. Now this is where my guessing comes in place. I would think it wasn't the stress per se from the water temperatures going up or down, but rather the increase in toxins in the water that contributed to disease and the lack of good factors to counter them. So in essence you can't fool mother nature into thinking warm water is good for your fish in the winter when there are not the other necessary components needed to keep the water healthy. ie algae, good bacteria, plants, etc.

 

[barryian]

oh, I see the new thread but my point about heating possibly being bad was not about stress in particular. I think it related more to this topic and the prevalence of good or bad bacteria. I know of a very large pond in the Chicago area of about 40,000 gallons that was maintained by a professional pond keeper. The pond was heated in the winter to something like 60 degrees or more and the majority of the 100 or so Koi in the pond became diseased and many of the fish where lost. Now this is where my guessing comes in place. I would think it wasn't the stress per se from the water temperatures going up or down, but rather the increase in toxins in the water that contributed to disease and the lack of good factors to counter them. So in essence you can't fool mother nature into thinking warm water is good for your fish in the winter when there are not the other necessary components needed to keep the water healthy. ie algae, good bacteria, plants, etc.

Hmm ... Hard to say as to many variables that could have taken place. One thing is that with the water temp at a constant 45F which I've done year over year, the fish never reach the stress level keeping their immune system somewhat higher than say 32-34F which lowers the immune system quite a bit more. There's always aeromonas to deal with, possibly what happened with the temps at 60F ... hard call. Fooling mother nature has it's dichotomy ... though the water temp is up and that's all fish know, the
feeding has stopped so ammonia also has at 45F but at 60F if feeding creates a whole new scenario. I don't think 60F in Chicago
has many upsides. Now the respiration is producing more ammonia and the fish were or weren't fed? I guess I'm going incircles as the scenario is to hard to figure out without knowing specifics, right?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I would think it wasn't the stress per se from the water temperatures going up or down, but rather the increase in toxins in the water that contributed to disease and the lack of good factors to counter them. So in essence you can't fool mother nature into thinking warm water is good for your fish in the winter when there are not the other necessary components needed to keep the water healthy. ie algae, good bacteria, plants, etc.

Why would toxins increase in the water just because it was kept at 60F?
Winter pond temps in my area typically stay around 60F with absolutely no increase in toxins or pathogens.
Also the other "necessary components" would indeed be present.Why would they not be?
I am sorry Keith but I do not follow your thinking here. 60F water is 60F water regardless of what the calendar says or what the ambient air temperature may be.