Ceaning your pond????

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The other question is, how is it aquariums manage to stay healthy without all that mulm and detritus and all that human intervention? After all a pond, with it's closed water system, has more similarities to an aquarium than to a natural lake or stream.
Aquarium3.jpg

Although it's true people can sometimes over manage their ponds by doing things like yearly draining and pressure washing the liner, it is more true, at least from what I've seen, that an unhealthy pond is more often a result of neglect than over management. Same goes for aquariums.
 

Meyer Jordan

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After all a pond, with it's closed water system, has more similarities to an aquarium than to a natural lake or stream.

This depends entirely on pond design and construction. An eco-pond bears little resemblance to an aquarium and constructed correctly will not have a problem with excessive accumulation of organic detritus.
 
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This depends entirely on pond design and construction. An eco-pond bears little resemblance to an aquarium and constructed correctly will not have a problem with excessive accumulation of organic detritus.
Where can you buy these "eco-ponds"?
Never mind I did a Google search and found the site. http://www.ecopond.com/
You are right, they bear little resemblance to an aquarium.
 

Meyer Jordan

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Wrong example. That is a product name on that website.

An eco-pond (or eco-system pond) is defined thus:
An eco-system pond supports various communities of organisms dependent on each other for nutrients and survival. It consists of abiotic and biotic components. The basic abiotic components are water, oxygen, carbon dioxide, salts, nitrogen, etc.
"Only a small amount of these elements are present in soluble state in pond water,but a large amount is held in reserve solid form in the bottom sediments as well as within the organisms.Various organisms get their nourishment from these abiotic substances.The rate of release of reserve nutrients ,the solar input and the cycle of temperature ,day length and other climatic conditions regulate the function of the Pond ecosystem." Tutorvista.com
The biotic components consists of:
Producers-The biofilm, periphyton and phytoplankton.
Consumers-Zooplankton, insect larvae and nymphs, and animals.
Decomposers- The various bacteria and fungi.
Some combination of all of these elements is required.
 
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Yes I was well aware that was not what you were thinking, however it does give you a pretty good example of how a phrase like "eco-pond" can mean different things to different people. Your description above is certainly one interpretation, but the link I sent was another persons idea of what an "eco-pond" is, and our buddies at Aquascape who like to drain their ponds every year and pressure wash everything down have another. http://www.aquascapeinc.com/blogs/water-gardening/Is-Your-Pond-Eco-Friendly
We all know that to have a balanced healthy pond that supports fish life we need a certain about of organics in the pond, but you must also be aware that the majority of backyard ponds (think 50 gal preform kit) don't come anywhere near close to fitting your or William Jones's idea of a balance functioning "eco-pond". Thus, just like aquariums, periodic cleaning and maintaining (human intervention) of most backyard ponds will probably be a necessary chore in order to keep those wonderful "biotic components" from getting out of hand.
My disagreement isn't that it isn't possible to have an functioning "eco-pond" as you describe, rather I disagree with the advice that "all you have to do is leave your pond alone and nature will take care of everything" is valid or wise advice for the vast majority of backyard pond owners. I've repeatedly mentioned that most of the unhealthy backyard ponds I've seen were under managed rather than over managed. No they probably weren't designed to fit your idea of a "eco-pond", but in reality, what percentage of backyard ponds do think come close to being designed like that?
 
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Meyer Jordan

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I think that the 'elephant in the room' is the size (capacity and surface area) of any "pond".
This is only mentioned when the subject of discussion is fish load, when it should really be first on the list when discussing a self-balancing system. There has to be a tipping point on minimal size before this self-balancing can naturally occur. I pause to even refer to small water features as 'ponds' as specie diversity and richness can not be supported below a minimal size.
The example that you mentioned of a 50 gallon pre-form kit if sold as a pond is a mis-representation IMO as 50 gallons can not truly support all of the components necessary for a self-balancing pond.
I know of no research that has been done on this subject but in my experience anything smaller than 1000-1200 gallons will not achieve any satisfactory degree of self-balance.
 
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Again I ask "what percentage of backyard ponds do think come close to being designed like that?"
You bring up size and dismiss a 50 gallon preform kit as even classifying as a pond. What about a 100 gallon, or a 500 gallon pond? Does the body of water have to be above 1000 or 1200 gallons before you can classify it as a pond? If so then many of the members here in this forum may not be the pond owners they think they are. In fact, if that is the case the majority of worldwide backyard "pond" owner may not be pond owners at all from what I've seen. All the closest backyard ponds to me, that I know of, are less than 1000 gallons. Even the closest landscaping shop that sells pond supplies has a "pond" in the front of their store that can't be more than 1000 gallons.
As I said, I'm not disputing that you can have a much more "natural" pond by making it larger, I'm just disputing the generalized advice given in this thread that you'll have a healthier pond by letting nature take care of your ponds and suggesting that people not clean their ponds of muck and detritus. It just won't work in the vast majority of backyard ponds, in fact, given enough time and accumulation depending on the ponds situation (eg; surrounded by leafy trees) it will likely eventually have the opposite effect.
 

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The point that you are making is quite valid. But 'size does make a difference'.
When someone on this or other Forums asked a question one of the qualifiers for an answer is 'How big is your 'pond'?'. When I see that the 'pond' is 100, 200, 300 gallons etc. my thinking immediately shifts to maintainance, whereas with a larger system, 1,000, 3,000, 5,000+ gallons, my thinking goes to what may have been disturbed or altered
A small water feature requires on-going and sometimes high levels of maintenance, but a larger eco-system requires very little, if any, maintenance. IMO only a larger system can really qualify as a pond. It is like calling 2 or 3 potted plants a garden. Sorry but they are just 2 or 3 potted plants.
 
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Problem is, not all "filtration" is created equal, and I don't know if you know this or not, but there are many "natural" bodies of water that can't support fish life, assuming we can agree that supporting fish life is at least the bare minimum prerequisite for labeling a pond "healthy". If the only life we need to support in a pond is bacteria to call it healthy, then just about any body of water can be labeled natural and healthy, including my septic tank.

These bodies of water unable to support fish life you speak of are easily recognised as places where no one in their right mind would put their fish in the first place. It would be obviously fatal for them because of the look of it and the smell. The only way I have ever lost fish is because of predation by a heron but never because the pond has become polluted. There are wind born weed killer chemicals in common use equally lethal to fish.
This debate has uncovered a deep division of opinion on the topic of pond cleaning and both sides can't be right but both can be wrong! I shall stick with the pond which is cleaned naturally! Also I don't understand your comment about "unequal filtration systems". Please explain.
 
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Problem is, not all "filtration" is created equal, and I don't know if you know this or not, but there are many "natural" bodies of water that can't support fish life, assuming we can agree that supporting fish life is at least the bare minimum prerequisite for labeling a pond "healthy". If the only life we need to support in a pond is bacteria to call it healthy, then just about any body of water can be labeled natural and healthy, including my septic tank.

Hello MW, We seem to be at odds about something else now. After nearly 20 years of keeping fish using the "natural" approach I sleep well at night thinking I must have got it right. But you now raise the question about bodies of water which can't support life at all because of pollution. If there was anything wrong with any fish pond it would be immediately obvious at a glance because of the distressed behaviour of the fish. Firstly they would all be at the surface gasping for air. If the problem is lack of oxygen then pump air into the pond and if that doesn't help then get the fish out post haste, replace water and then clean the pond. At least I am aware of what to do in an emergency such as this but it has never happened so I must be doing something right. Another good sign is that my fish are breeding.
"Problem is, not all "filtration" is created equal," You still haven't told us what this means!
Have a nice day.
 
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These bodies of water unable to support fish life you speak of are easily recognised as places where no one in their right mind would put their fish in the first place. It would be obviously fatal for them because of the look of it and the smell.
Not so, in many cases the water is not "polluted" and is able to support fish most of the year and may even be quite healthy, it is only during certain seasons (typically winter) where, for various reasons the oxygen levels drop too low to support fish. Often this is because of an abundance of decaying plant mater and algae, but often it is a combination of things including a thick prolonged ice layer in the winter. But your statement in your first post that nature will take care of itself in a natural habitat (bodies of water) isn't valid as fish die off in natural bodies of water, especially smaller lake and ponds, is a common occurrence. As pond owners we don't want that to happen to our ponds and one step to preventing that may be to remove excess detritus, especially before winter freeze up, especially those with smaller or heavily stocked ponds.
The only way I have ever lost fish is because of predation by a heron but never because the pond has become polluted. There are wind born weed killer chemicals in common use equally lethal to fish.
This debate has uncovered a deep division of opinion on , the topic of pond cleaning and both sides can't be right but both can be wrong! I shall stick with the pond which is cleaned naturally! Also I don't understand your comment about "unequal filtration systems". Please explain.
I'm not suggesting or even disputing that your system is working for you, I'm just disputing that your advice that leaving all the mulm and detritus in a pond is the best plan for the majority of pond owners.

I'm curious as to the specs of your pond? I'm guessing in is more then a couple thousand gallons. The shape, skimmer?, and what type of filters system you have for it with what sort of water turn over? I'm guessing that as Meyers indicated it's must be fairly large. Some pictures would be nice.

As to understanding my comment about "unequal filtration systems" I thought that would be pretty obvious, but I'll explain..... You said in an earlier post "Nature will sort it out much better than humans. But be sure to attend to filtration and that's about it". What I mean is that there are many types of filters people use in there backyard ponds, some might be very effective, but some might be totally ineffective, and in a situation where there is a lot of excess waste and detritus in a pond a serious situation would be more likely to develop in a pond that has an ineffective filtering system, no mater how much the pond owner "attends" to it.
Keep in mind there are generally two basic types of filtration used in ponds, biological filtration and mechanical filtration, and both are very important. Just focusing on the mechanical filtration for a second, the basic function of a mechanical filter is to capture excess detritus so it can be removed from the water cycle. One would have to ask if this stuff (detritus) is so great why should anyone be at all concerned with trying to filter it out of our pond water?
The answer is because although a little bit may be OK (maybe even beneficial), and some ponds can even handle a moderate amount, there is a point that even the biggest ponds (and lakes) can be overwhelmed and the oxygen consumption of all that decaying excess detritus can compete with the oxygen demands of the fish leading to an unhealthy or even fatal situation.

PS. You have a nice days as well. (y)
 
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Spring clean up or not?

I clean up the leaves and debris during the fall and spring, I've watched video (you tube) of full pond cleaning. My belief is that the fish would stress out with taking them out of the this early in the season - the water temp is fluctuating from cool to cold. The pond is five years old is doesn't seem of be "dirty" , the fish are healthy, the frogs are ready for warm weather - I can't see doing a full clean up, power washing the rocks and waterfall? My view is that the you tube video for spring clean up is put out by a manufacturer of products to get us to buy their stuff.

I stay on top of rinsing out the filters and making sure the leaves and tree junk gets cleaned out - all fish seem to be healthy and happy - so I say no to major spring clean up.
 

addy1

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Not cleaning my pond besides netting out excess leaves that fall in. The bottom of my pond stays pretty clean.
 
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This is such a great discussion and leads back to a really important point - every pond is different. I rarely scoop my pond because I have very few trees that shed leaves near my pond. Most of the leaves that enter my pond blow in from neighboring yards. But if you're a pond owner who has many trees dropping leaves (or needles) into your pond, your cleaning needs will be completely different than mine.

And yes - size DOES matter. Smaller ponds are much more sensitive to all the factors that can negatively impact a pond than are larger ponds. And I agree wit @Meyer Jordan - not every container of water is a "pond". I have a patio "pond" - a 65 gallon container of water that I grow plants in every summer - but I know it's not the same as my 4000 gallon body of water and I have to deal with it differently.
 

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My pond has three big trees near it, BUT and this is the important but, if the wind blows the right direction, which is usually away from the pond, the majority miss it. My main issue is the maple seeds that helicopter down into the pond. I scoop out a lot of them. The skimmer pulls most of them in, I have to clean it everyday when they are falling.
 

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