clear water?

[fishin4cars]

I have to say, I built my filter and installed on a established pond. Not as bad of algae growth but same results. Went from being able to see about 50% down to easy 100% down in two days. There is something working with the system. I have never used UV on that pond, crystal clear water was never important to me in that pond, just a QT and holding tank, Looks better than it ever has. But, I have installed and used UV for several years, in almost every application where they were put into use the owner was 100% satisfied with the results they produce, and in most of those case they were tired of trying everything else.

 

[DrDave]

Somehow I feel, that nothing I say, will alter your opinion. I am only relating what my experience was. I'm sorry if you don't agree with it.

 

[vertigo72]

DrDave, I'm not arguing for sake of arguing, nor am I arguing against the effectiveness of your filters. Its just that there has to be a reason why it would counter free floating algae, and I dont see it. If someone says 10 hail mary's and a few days later his pond clears up, I wont dispute the facts, but I am not going to accept a causal relation either.

I do not have your experience, nor do I claim to, but Ive read a fair bit, and Ive read about a gazillion possible ways to combat green water, from chemicals to bacteria, from salt to UV, from plants to water changes, but nowhere have I seen anyone claiming a biological or mechanical filter is effective against floating algae, let alone a reason for how it could be. Im not being sarcastic when I say I would love to hear a rational reason for it.

 

[DrDave]

When I developed the Doc Bio Filter, it had 7000 cut irrigation tubes as the media for the areobic bacteria to colonize. Between the vortex created in the bottom from the swirl of the incomming water and the 30" the single cell algae had to travel up through all those tubes, a combination of centrifugal force, gravity and I'm told areobic bacteria also love single cell algae. The water comes out crystal clear. I have been advising hundreds in the construction of this filter (which I do at no charge ever) for many years. I get reports back from some and the results reported are similar to mine.

My new design that uses fencing, has not been put to the same test on algae blooms since I have not had one. A lot of folks here are using my design, maybe someone will speak up on the fence method and if they are getting the same results.

I wish I could animate a cutaway view that I can easily draw to illustrate how it works. Maybe some day.

My web site has both designs featured.

 

[vertigo72]

When I developed the Doc Bio Filter, it had 7000 cut irrigation tubes as the media for the areobic bacteria to colonize. Between the vortex created in the bottom from the swirl of the incomming water and the 30" the single cell algae had to travel up through all those tubes, a combination of centrifugal force, gravity and I'm told areobic bacteria also love single cell algae.

There would barely have been any aerobic bacteria in your filter after just 3 days,you'd be lucky to have a suitable colony in 3 weeks. Which leaves the mechanical filtration which isnt really that different from any other filter? Your vortex is only a few inches high, not likely to work better than traditional "full size" vortex prefilters, which do nothing against algae. The mechanical filtration of the tubes, Im quite willing to accept they are a great compromise of cost, flow and effectiveness, but its kind of hard to imagine that stopping all microscopic algae. It just doesnt compute..

Going out on a limb, that tube you cut, was that ever used for something else before? Is it possible there was some residue on it from god knows what?

 

[DrDave]

You hit the nail on the head. I harvested the irrigation tubing, which was mostly buried, from the grove in a field next to my property. It had been there for may years before they cut down the grove. I set up my gardener with a paper cutter and a stop at 1 1/2" long and told him to cut until I said to stop. At his cut rate, I estimated 7000 pieces and they went directly into the bio filter. An established pond has a lot of areobic bacteria in it. When I turned on the pump, I imagine that it gave the bio media a head start.
You are right, however, 2-3 weeks is normal for the colony to get established.
BTW, the swirl area in my 55 gallon drum is about 8" high.

 

[addy1]

Vertigo:

This is my pond, you can see to the bottom, this area is 4-5 feet deep. Except for the issue we had with pea gravel dust, it has been clear. We have had no string algae, no floating algae, minimal side algae. The pond currently is 88 degrees. It is in full sun. Between the fry, adults, tads, bugs we do have some bio load. There are approx 30 "adult" fish, more than a fry lol. Tons and tons of fry and tads. The ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are zero.

Our pump turns it over approximately every 1.5 hours. We have no other filtration being used.

I love my bog, the plants that grow in it and how it takes care of our pond. It is the largest I have built, and is working the best. A tad over sized, but I wanted the plant room.

So it is each persons decision as to build a bog or not, or do other types of filtration. If I built another pond, I would still build a bog.

There are plants in the pond, the bog is growing well.

These are a few of the fry that are at the bottom, 4 foot depth, they are right next to an air hose. The out of focus white spots are flower petals from the forgetmenot in the bog.

Here are a few of the adults, around 5 feet down. The white one is the gal I saw spawning.

 

[vertigo72]

You hit the nail on the head. I harvested the irrigation tubing, which was mostly buried, from the grove in a field next to my property. It had been there for may years before they cut down the grove..

Now thats interesting. But I imagine it had been dry for weeks or even years, or was it kept wet before you cut it up?

I set up my gardener with a paper cutter and a stop at 1 1/2" long and told him to cut until I said to stop. At his cut rate, I estimated 7000 pieces and they went directly into the bio filter. An established pond has a lot of areobic bacteria in it. When I turned on the pump, I imagine that it gave the bio media a head start.

Sure, but even so, the autotrophic bacteria in our biofilters are slow growers. For instance, nitrobacter under ideal circumstances, will double about every 20 hours. Ideal circumstances would mean fish killing ammonia levels I assume you didnt have, so with or without headstart from the pond, in just three days the biofilter will not be able to make any difference in that regard. Unless the bacteria where already on there.

BTW, the swirl area in my 55 gallon drum is about 8" high

Ok, but thats not more than a traditional vortex filter which is more like 3 feet high and pointless to counter green water. I dont see how even a 30 feet high vortex would get rid of any suspended algae.

Anyway, the only thing I can think off that differentiates your design from most others, is that you actually do not (or barely) separate the mechanical filtration stage from the biological one. We've had that discussion before, your filter by its very concept allows a lot of gunk in the area where the biological filtration (ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate) takes place, unlike most traditional/commercial solutions where as many particles as possible are removed before the biofilter, because that makes the nitrification more efficient.

Perhaps a side effect from your design is that other kinds of bacteria thrive in the gunk caught in those tubes, and maybe that actually helps against algae?

 

[j.w]

addy your plants are growing gung ho and I guess I need better glasses or a magnifying glass to see the fish fry...............all I see are the bigger fish

 

[addy1]

Here jw, this lil one was right on the surface

 

[koiguy1969]

no biofilter stops green water, the final product of a biofilter is nitrates, like any plant, alge feeds on nitrates...an abundance of plants is what keeps green water down. that said; alot of people dont want to cover that much of their ponds with plants, they want to see their fish. dedicated koi ponds with no plants, what are they to do?...U.V s are basically no maintainence, theres seldom ever a reason to run one all season. i run mine for 10 days... maybe!! mine draws 9.75 watts. $5.00 a month would cover it running 24 / 7 all month. so cost is not an issue...bulbs can be pricey but they dont have to be..mine, i get 2 for $12.00. plumbing them in is a couple hose clamps!!

 

[j.w]

Here jw, this lil one was right on the surface

Oh wait well if that's the fish you are talking about then I saw the other ones too............just thought they were too big to be the little ones and I was missing them............guess I don't need new glasses after all
They are pretty ones :regular_waving_emot

 

[j.w]

Hard to tell the size of things when they are all alone w/ no reference sometimes. Next time you get in the pond next to them and I'll have a reference :regular_waving_emot

 

[addy1]

yep koiguy, I don't have koi, the deep end except for on the sides is plant free.
I watch the fish from the house all of the time.

The bog would probably handle the pond with out pond plants, but I want to have the plants.

Jw those others may have been the good buy from walmart, Some of my fry are growing like crazy, getting harder to tell them apart.

 

[vertigo72]

no biofilter stops green water, the final product of a biofilter is nitrates, like any plant, alge feeds on nitrates...an abundance of plants is what keeps green water down.

Precisely, or at least thats the conventional wisdom. Any claims to the opposite require more proof than one or two anecdotes, particularly if these anecdotes are about ponds that are stuffed with plants, like Dave's pond appears to be. In fact, judging by the pics and videos on his site, there are so many thriving plants in there, I seriously doubts he needs any biofilter at all.

Im open to the possibility, even if remote, that his design allows for the growth of some anaerobic bacteria which might counter algae production somehow (like by removing phosphates), or that the load on his biofilters is so low, that various protozoa and eumetazoa can thrive there, and those might actually feed on single cell algae, but Im not going to "buy" it until Ive seen the results in a pond with little or no plants and a substantial fish load.

The thing is, if this filter really is effective at countering green water, its almost certainly not very effective at converting ammonia and nitrites, as those are for the most part, opposite goals.

Dave, have you ever tried really testing your filter? By that I mean, an empty pond or quarantine tank with one of your (matured) filters and no fish, no plants, then add pure ammonia and measure how long it takes to cycle. Likewise, turn it off long enough to get an algae bloom and see if turning it back on really does anything to remove the algae.