Color question

[capewind]

Another fish I dont know the color name... In the 7th pic, on the left side of the "Chagoi WannaBe/Faded Matsuba"... two orange fish... the one in the rear is a hana shusui... what is the one in front of her? I've noticed with the shusui's that the name Asagi Shusui name comes up at times... would that be a hana asagi, or a really light Matsuba? What is she? Also, in the last pic, on the right side of the "Chagoi WannaBe/Faded Matsuba" is a male, very similar to her, but has a bit more black on his back. Same pattern, just a bit darker...

 

[CountryEscape]

Larkin, I'm pretty sure you gave me a internet site that was really good in helping with the names of the different color patterns and scale types, but I can't locate it, and evidently did not put it on my "pond information cheat sheet". Can you help here? I just looked and this is a site that has some good descriptions if you like to read: http://www.bonniesplants.com/KoiTerminology.html I, however, prefer pictures with the color terms.

 

[CountryEscape]

Cape, I'm not familiar with the Hana Shusui, so I looked it up. The site I saw said this: "The Hana Shusui, or "flower" Shusui, is a white koi with wavy bands of rusty red and oversized, bluish scales running along the dorsal." I tried to copy/paste the pic, but it came in as gobbletygoop, so you will have to look it up yourself! It looks like what I think of a Shusui - gray/bluish belly, red high and dark line of scales on dorsal line. Red on cheeks sometimes, like the Asagi, or one is like the other, I'm confused now. LOL
This doesn't look like your fish, but I have a feeling fish get named color descriptions when we buy them, and then change as they grow. I know mine have changed since December. I love the Shusui in this pic, not sure how the "hana" is different and how it pertains to this pic... I like learning about new color patterns, though, so keep on popping up the names you have! :razz:

 

[capewind]

A cross between Doitsu and Asagi, Shusui was one of the first Doitsu varieties of Nishikigoi.
Shusui have a neatly arranged line of dark-blue scales along the dorsal line, on a pale-blue skin. The head should be light-blue and it should have red on the cheeks. The abdomen is bright orange or red, like the Asagi, as are the fin joints.


Several sub-varieties are found:
- Hi Shusui: where the Hi spreads up from the abdomen covering the back.
- Hana Shusui: similar to Hi Shusui but with another line of dark-blue mirror scales along the lateral lines.
- Ki Shusui: very rare, yellow instead of red with the back scales usually blue.
- Pearl Shusui: very rare, it’s supposed to have silver scales.

On our fish, the "white spot" on her head is pale blue... and running the length of her body, she has POOR (thin and broken) blue/white stripe on both sides. She is not a good representative of the color.

 

[CountryEscape]

Oh crap, I reversed the red and the blue! Red belly, blue body, dark blue (sometimes looks black) scales along the dorsal line. Shusui. I stand corrected. LOL
My sister's koi, she was told it was a "rare blue". I think it's a Shusui of some variety.

Of course, they told her it was "very rare" and got over $200 out of her for this one fish. You have to know my sister. If they tell her something, it's the truth, and they didn't lie or stretch the truth, it's RARE! Whatever, it's a beautiful fish nonetheless. I think she calls it "Blue Boy" because the seller told her koi rarely come in this "dark blue" and it is very rare, and is what you must have to raise quality koi. Whatever .... As I told her, it's beautiful, but it's not what I would consider blue. To me, blue on a fish would be where it looked blue, not black. Blue on a Doberman is dark gray. Blue on a cat is gray. Blue on a fish should be more blue, in my opinion. LOL But, you have to remember, my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot, just to me.

 

[capewind]

If you look in the bottom left corner of the 7th pic, you can see one of our traditional shusui... have another with more orange, but (s)he didnt make it into the pics with "the brown guy" LOL.

 

[capewind]

Oh crap, I reversed the red and the blue! Red belly, blue body, dark blue (sometimes looks black) scales along the dorsal line. Shusui. I stand corrected. LOL
My sister's koi, she was told it was a "rare blue". I think it's a Shusui of some variety.
View attachment 48473
Of course, they told her it was "very rare" and got over $200 out of her for this one fish. You have to know my sister. If they tell her something, it's the truth, and they didn't lie or stretch the truth, it's RARE! Whatever, it's a beautiful fish nonetheless. I think she calls it "Blue Boy" because the seller told her koi rarely come in this "dark blue" and it is very rare, and is what you must have to raise quality koi. Whatever .... As I told her, it's beautiful, but it's not what I would consider blue. To me, blue on a fish would be where it looked blue, not black. Blue on a Doberman is dark gray. Blue on a cat is gray. Blue on a fish should be more blue, in my opinion. LOL But, you have to remember, my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot, just to me.

Was this site calling the pic you posted a shusui??? I have never seen one like that.. which means nothing, I am still trying to keep the different varieties within the same group straight LOL

 

[CountryEscape]

Yes, Cape, that is a gorgeous Shusui in that 7th pic bottom left corner! I would love to have one like that. My Asagi (well, I call it an Asagi, cause it's as close to one as I have):

I got him/her (still have not seen any breeding go on with this fish, so no sure of the sex) from a GPF breeder from IN, and chose because I had seen Asagi's that I thought were so pretty, and hoped it would retain it's coloring. So far it has and I'm well pleased!

 

[capewind]

Ok, my pc is being gay... I swear when I hit quote your post was shorter LOL... anyways, I HAVE seen a fish like this... a friend offered us one just like this, but our QT was already over crowded... will try to remember to ask her the color name again,,, she did give one for it...

 

[CountryEscape]

Nope, they told my sister it was a "rare blue fish" that's all they said. I posted it and asked if anyone could tell me what the color pattern was, thinking it was a Shusui, and I think a couple of the guys on here said it was a variation of a Shusui, or that was as close to a pattern description as we could come up with. My Asagi is not really an Asagi, but I call it that anyhow. LOL It has the red on the cheeks and white/blue on top and red belly, but not the dark dorsal line scales... or is that the Shusui that has the dark blue dorsal scales? Oh, it's late. I'm heading to bed. Tomorrow will be a better day! Good thing I partially filled my goldfish pond this morning ... NOT! It's been raining pretty hard this evening, bet it's going over the overflow.

 

[capewind]

Yes, Cape, that is a gorgeous Shusui in that 7th pic bottom left corner! I would love to have one like that. My Asagi (well, I call it an Asagi, cause it's as close to one as I have):
View attachment 48474
I got him/her (still have not seen any breeding go on with this fish, so no sure of the sex) from a GPF breeder from IN, and chose because I had seen Asagi's that I thought were so pretty, and hoped it would retain it's coloring. So far it has and I'm well pleased!

Im not sure of the variety name, but it is a very pretty fish!

The little shusui was an ebay purchase;-) I'll try tomorrow to get a pic of the other little shusui that hubby likes better... I think this is the better of the two... you can decide which of us is right LMAO

 

[Craig58]

Wow, a ton of posts since yesterday!

Yes.. The Chagoi pic I posted was a gin rin and as Larkin indicated a Chagoi should be a solid color and would be in a show koi. But not all Chagoi will be necessaily be solid. I'm no koi expert, it was my best guess and gin rin pic looked the most like yours to me. (minus the gin rin which is just the metalliac reflectivness).

IMHO it can be very difficult to specifically identify koi. Especially pond koi. (I'm NOT an elitist Koi keeper!). I don't even worry much about what we have and can't tell you what they all would be.

But the varieties are named along show lines. When the koi are bred, the combinations born are endless. Very few of the offspring are going to hold tightly to the parents lines. Some will. Many will look like they have similar patterens but most will have something different enough that they are more a knock off than the real thing. The breeders will keep the best ones for themselves to grow out and sell in the hundreds and even thousdands of dollars. The less promising ones are sold off to pond stores and retail stores. These are all usually beautiful fish. But many arrive that have odd markings or unusal markings. Pretty to us backyard pond keepers but not of monetary value to the breeders.

After visiting a Koi farm I was surprised at just how few of the fry are kept and how many are tossed out. It's kind of sinful. I believe it was like 90% are tossed by the time they are 1-2". 90% of those left are what make it to the stores. A breeder will probably only keep

 

[capewind]

Thanks Craig for your input. I know (have read) that the culling process for the true breeder is extreme. Like I said in my original post, I knew some wouldnt be correct to a color, but poor or close is better info than I presently have for some of them. It is silly, but most of our fish get names eventually. All of the koi, I can spot as individuals. Some that havent gotten "pet names" get called "something"... The one I started this post about doesnt have a pet name yet. Just havent come up with anything for him other than "the black guy" or :the brown guy"... The hana doesnt have a real name either, but she is nick named Mamma Hana (she, and the orange fish often with her are the 2 moms to the indoor spawn- if you recall me saying a few babies have their mom's white spots, you can see them on the girls). The big orange guy like the second momma is "the big orange guy" LOL.

 

[CountryEscape]

Cape, is that a Goromo (sp?) on the right in the 5th pic, top of the 6th and left side of last pic? I see it's a regular fin, and I seem to recall you had certain color patterns you wanted, but could not find in your price range, and I wondered if this was one of them. It's a really pretty fish either way! I was attracted to them as well, but could not find one I liked for a price I could afford last winter when I could have bundled it with my other fish.

 

[capewind]

Cape, is that a Goromo (sp?) on the right in the 5th pic, top of the 6th and left side of last pic? I see it's a regular fin, and I seem to recall you had certain color patterns you wanted, but could not find in your price range, and I wondered if this was one of them. It's a really pretty fish either way! I was attracted to them as well, but could not find one I liked for a price I could afford last winter when I could have bundled it with my other fish.

I hope he is, as that is what I thought he was (aka me trying to learn names). I dont mind paying for a fish, but refuse to pay $20 for 3-4" fish that look like crap. I'm hardly a big spender, but if a fish was what I wanted, I wouldnt hesitate to pay $150-200 for it. The biggest fish on my want list right now are more utsuri, a tancho, and another, I cant remember the color name... white fish, with what looks like black stepping stones evenly down its back. I had two little guys this color, but lost them a couple years ago when I bought a fish from another local place, and didnt think QT was THAT important. Worse was we lost our favorite who was 8 years old. Will post a pic of "Scully".