Do fish Feel pain ?

[dieselplower]

My point is if you won't put it on the forum, you shoukdnt pm it with the intent to keep your nose clean on the public forum. The real point of a PM is to send personal information or other info you don't need the rest of the forum/world to see. Not to call names. Do you think the point of PM is to call names?

 

[MitchM]

I'm speaking only for myself here, but I only really care about what is being discussed about the thread topic.
What happens between members is none of my business and can be a distraction from the topic of the thread.

If someone gets offended about something someone says on a thread, discussion about the offense only distracts from the thread topic.
If you're offended during the discussion, say so then stop posting.
I respect people more when they keep the discussion above all that.

 

[dieselplower]

I wasn't offended. I just laugh.

 

[Dave 54]

I'm starting to think so too mitch what is it you dont like about me dp ???? you seem hell bent in spoiling a good thread so what if I started another thread about fish feeling pain , it proves I care about the welfare of fish thats all , it also proves I'm human and humans do make mistakes and I'll be the first to put my hand up to it will you?

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

My point is if you won't put it on the forum, you shoukdnt pm it with the intent to keep your nose clean on the public forum. The real point of a PM is to send personal information or other info you don't need the rest of the forum/world to see. Not to call names. Do you think the point of PM is to call names?

If you didnt ride me so much like you have been doing then I wouldnt have a reason to send you a PM and I'm not the first , perhaps like myself you try buying the book then come in on the subject we may get somewhere
Now please lets gt back on track

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

So true, @MitchM! It's termed anthropomorphism: projecting human appearance, behavior or other traits onto a non-human subject. We exhibit this behavior often, I believe, without realizing it.

Troutredds it appears that we are hard wired to do this specially when the animal in question is young like with kittens puppies etc if we can identify with any species this happens , how many of us have an affinity with dolphins , I for one do I'd love to be up close to one wouldnt you ?
We care passionately about the welfare of our koi and have done for the last 27+ years personally I'm glad Victoria brought the subject of do fish feel pain , its been something overlooked for so long now .
That passion reflects in the great condition our koi are always in Andy 41 commented on it in the thread a meeting of two members its tht passion that has kept one of our koi alive for 27 years now.
For so long now people have treated fish as a throwaway commodity it refects in the millions exported to our respecive shores each and every year, look on You tube and the idiots who feed life goldfish to preditory fish and just laugh about it fish welfare needs to be brought to the fore and in the book this is what victora is doing

Dave

 

[Troutredds]

From Wikipedia:
"Pain is a complex state, with a distinct perceptual quality but also associated with suffering, which is an emotional state. Because of this complexity, the presence of pain in an animal, or another human for that matter, cannot be determined unambiguously using observational methods, but the conclusion that animals experience pain is often inferred on the basis of comparative brain physiology and physical and behavioral reactions. Some specialists currently believe that all higher vertebrates feel pain and that certain invertebrates, like the octopus, might to."

 

[Dave 54]

From Wikipedia:
"Pain is a complex state, with a distinct perceptual quality but also associated with suffering, which is an emotional state. Because of this complexity, the presence of pain in an animal, or another human for that matter, cannot be determined unambiguously using observational methods, but the conclusion that animals experience pain is often inferred on the basis of comparative brain physiology and physical and behavioral reactions. Some specialists currently believe that all higher vertebrates feel pain and that certain invertebrates, like the octopus, might to."

Agreed Troutredds I read that too which is amazing considering an Octopus is a molusc,
I suffer from Fybromyalgia but am being tested for MS so I know all about pain and agree whole heatedly in what your saying , perhaps thats what brought my attention to the book in the first place who knows .


Dave

 

[Troutredds]

Agreed Troutredds I read that too which is amazing considering an Octopus is a molusc,
I suffer from Fybromyalgia but am being tested for MS so I know all about pain and agree whole heatedly in what your saying , perhaps thats what brought my attention to the book in the first place who knows .


Dave

I'm sorry to learn of your suffering, Dave. We'll keep you in our prayers.

 

[Dave 54]

I'm sorry to learn of your suffering, Dave. We'll keep you in our prayers.

Troutredds thank you so very much. but my suffering is nothing to what is happening around the world especially in Africa at this time with Elbola please say a prayor for those people too my friend especially for those brave Doctors and Nurses in the front line of this epidemic and the families who have lost their loved ones

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

I though I'd paste a number of reports looking into the question of fish and Pain.
So as we look further into this subject it is becoming quite obvious to the scientific cummunity at least that fish do indeed feel pain perhaps not as we know pain but pain all the same .
Now all we need do is take onboard this fact and incorperate it into our day to day dealing with our fish , it becames vitally important we recognise the stress caused by pain and its effects on this fish especially during times of injury and we have to be mindful of how we treat our fish to aid them to a speedy recovery

http://global.oup.com/academic/prod...5A854E1BF647CCA0864090E1EF786?cc=gb&lang=en&#

http://www.mercyforanimals.org/fish/fish-feel-pain.aspx

Then again there are opposing reports saying that they dont but I think the majority of us believe they do.
When you think about it pain is hard wired into us all its a sort of survival mechinism, simply put without without it we would more than probably killed ourselves off years ago .
The same thing applies to animals birds and fish .....

Dave

 

[dieselplower]

You know what's funny...? That these knuckleads have to do all the studies to tell if fish can feel pain or not!

 

[CometKeith]

Fish have neuro receptors such as axons and dendrites that feel sensation. The first neuroscience studies were done with molluscs which have a very simple nervous system and they definitely react to stimuli. When I was in school we did experiments with frog legs and would inject curare which is a tranquilizer at the nerve receptors to slow down reaction to stimuli and then we would measure end plate potentials. These tests were a repetition of some of the first scientific experiments published in neuroscience journals more than a half century ago. Most developed animals have a central nervous system and simpler organisms have only localized nervous systems. I'm sure fish feel something when affected by stimuli but they process it differently than we do and typically have a very simple central nervous system. In other words they react to stimuli but maybe don't think ouch they way we do. My opinion is since cold blooded creatures like carp don't feel temperature they probably don't feel pain as we feel it either. However I agree with tadpole. Any scientific study that comes out in a book form and not first as a paper in a scientific journal that is reviewed by peers can not be trusted.

 

[Dave 54]

Fish have neuro receptors such as axons and dendrites that feel sensation. The first neuroscience studies were done with molluscs which have a very simple nervous system and they definitely react to stimuli. When I was in school we did experiments with frog legs and would inject curare which is a tranquilizer at the nerve receptors to slow down reaction to stimuli and then we would measure end plate potentials. These tests were a repetition of some of the first scientific experiments published in neuroscience journals more than a half century ago. Most developed animals have a central nervous system and simpler organisms have only localized nervous systems. I'm sure fish feel something when affected by stimuli but they process it differently than we do and typically have a very simple central nervous system. In other words they react to stimuli but maybe don't think ouch they way we do. My opinion is since cold blooded creatures like carp don't feel temperature they probably don't feel pain as we feel it either. However I agree with tadpole. Any scientific study that comes out in a book form and not first as a paper in a scientific journal that is reviewed by peers can not be trusted.

So I dont trust any book thats even been written of the subject of fish health, many written by people with Doctorates in veteranary science why then did they write books, this seems to be what your saying Kieth just because Meyer couldnt locate the reaserch papers online does not mean they arent out there, the internet is just one media we chose to float ideas on isnt it ?.
Any creature will react to temperature be they carp or humans at the extremes of which we die at both ends of the scale , we find its the same for every living creature exept for extremeophiles who seem able to survive both extremes of heat and cold .
By releasing it to book form she is simply using that form of media to open debate, which in my mind she has successfully done yet as a research fellow she must have published papers .
Googling her name and asking the right questions seems to link into her the more you look, this is what I found in a few minutes of searching :-

http://fishcount.org.uk/fish-welfare-in-commercial-fishing/fish-sentience/do-fish-feel-pain

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/44594

http://freefromharm.org/farm-animal-intelligence/why-we-have-no-compassion-for-fish/

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ufaw/aw/2004/00000013/A00101s1/art00012


We care passionately about the welfare of our koi, we came here to help other fish keepers in an amature capacity to help others learn and educate themselves in the subject of fish health by doing so we continue learning ourselves.
We dont claim to be experts in our field , if thats the case we have to ask Meyer exactly why he is here ?
Is it because he wishes to help others or is it for an altereria motive i;e to help with his business, personally I hope its to help, as we would love to expand our knowledge base even further.
By buying the book and reading it we hope to understand our fish that bit better because like others have already stated weve long suspected that fish do feel pain .
The reason we buy fish health books is the same we wish to learn more about the subject of fish health thus keeping our pets alive and in the best possible health , it stands to good reason that pain is a threat to that health,
Just because we cant hear fish scream doesnt mean they are pain free (can you imagine just what it would feel like to have a large ulcer in your side and just what that is doing to your receptors)?
Fish by their very nature like many creatures hide illness for as long as they can otherwise they end up as lunch and that is a fact we cannot get around so it stands to reason they would hide any pain for as long as they possibly can yes ?
This debate is set to run on both in the hobby and in anglling circles as well as in the fishing industry of which I was once part of until ill health forced a stop to it back in 1986.
I will readily admit that way back then I never gave it a thought we caught the fish, gutted them put them on ice and delivered them to the agents who would then sell them on for consumption in our stores and fish and chip shops .
Do we give any thought to this life that was torn from its aquatic enviroment no , nor do we give it a thought about any other life we take so that we as humans can eat. (however at least in the meat trade there are thoughts as to the welfare of the animals we slaughter) we make it quick as pssible , but in this I question dont we hide behind another book ,i;e "the bible", in the good book doesnt it state that we as gods chosen are given stewardship over all living creatures to do what we wish with.
No-one questions this ( now please dont think I'm knocking the bible, I would be horrified if anyone that that).
Perhaps its because I live with pain 24/7 365 day a year that I have empathy with these creatures who knows thats maybe why I bought the book in the first place, you have to admit that its as far from my usual fish diseases books as I can get .

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Most non-fiction books have a bibliography at the end. These, in many cases, are scientific articles and papers that the author has cited within the text of the book. I have not read the book that Dave references, but he states that the author is a researcher. So it almost a certainty that this book has a sizable bibliography and that much of it will be peer-reviewed scientific documents. Am I correct in my assumptions, Dave?