It's official fish do feel pain (read on)....

[Dave 54]

Here in the UK there has been a debate raging on as to do fish feel pain I think the farmed fish people have been dragging their collective feet for quite a while now until I read this story in the PFK magazine today:-

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co....ises_importance_of_fish_pain&utm_content=html

As you will read thi has changed

Dave.

 

[VanDiesil]

Fish do feel pain, anything with nerves will feel pain. Just because it cannot scream or cry doesn't mean it cannot fell pain. The age old question is can fish feel pain in their lips or mouth is an argument that the "bunny huggers" have been using for years against angling. The answer to that is nobody knows and lab experiments have proved inconclusive. Fish are quite happy to suck in bits of gravel or mussel shells, etc that can be sharp & I have watched fish take these items in to their mouths willingly and not show any distress at all, same with a sharp piece of steel that has embedded into the lip, and carry on feeding, that is until the line has tightened and the force of the tightened line has caused the fish to spook and bolt away (just as a human jumps or flees if scared or if an invisible force suddenly started to pull them in an opposite direction to where they want to go. Doesn't mean that any pain is caused. Most anglers that fish for carp take much better care of the fish on the bank than most hobbyist fish keepers would ever do with anti-slime removal padded mats, plenty of water to keep the fish moist out of the water as well as antiseptic treatments that are more potent than most of the more expensive ones bought in a pet store (both to treat hook holds as well as scale, fin or body damage).

As an angler and a fish keeper, the welfare of the fish as well as the study of them, is paramount to me, especially when they are out of the water. I have seen fish pictured in hobbyist magazines and books that have been laid in the net straight on top of slabs surrounding the pond!!!!!! That is not good practise at all, nor is placing them on gravel or vegetation. Why is it that mats that anglers use to protect the fish are not widely used by the hobbyist fish keeper when fish are removed for treatment?

 

[Mucky_Waters]

That's a stupid question in the First place.
VanDiesil is right, anything with a nervous system will feel pain, or something similar to what we feel as pain. That shouldn't be the question. The question should be, as far as fish and other creatures are concerned is, should we feel bad for inflicting pain on other creatures. And unfortunately as long as humans as a whole continue to inflict pain on each other, there will never be anyway we will be able to really pull ourselves up high enough out of our moral gutter to not inflict pain on other, so called, lower creatures. Especially when we use so many of them for food. Sure we may try to treat them well before we eat them, but you have to look at it from their point of view, could you ever really forgive any species that fed you and kept you alive so that they could eventually kill you, or your loved ones, and eat you?

 

[Dave 54]

"VanDiesil, Most anglers that fish for carp take much better care of the fish on the bank than most hobbyist fish keepers would ever do with anti-slime removal padded mats, plenty of water to keep the fish moist out of the water as well as antiseptic treatments that are more potent than most of the more expensive ones bought in a pet store (both to treat hook holds as well as scale, fin or body damage).
As an angler and a fish keeper, the welfare of the fish as well as the study of them, is paramount to me, especially when they are out of the water. I have seen fish pictured in hobbyist magazines and books that have been laid in the net straight on top of slabs surrounding the pond!!!!!! That is not good practise at all, nor is placing them on gravel or vegetation. Why is it that mats that anglers use to protect the fish are not widely used by the hobbyist fish keeper when fish are removed for treatment?

I dont know where your getting your information from there my friend but you'll know that under the new animal welfare bill we all have a duty of care to our koi, so I'm supprised you dont mention this besides good practice and duty of care is something weve been practicing for over 27 years now has have everyone I know.
Members of BKKS affiliated sections are taught all about the care of koi when out of the water and laying them on the grass or gravel is not part of those teachings.
We all use extreme care with our koi whe they are out of their enviroment they are placed on baby mats with damp towels atop of that or the more fortununate keepers have a koi cradle for treating their koi .
Never in my 27 years as a Plymouth section member "of which we are the founding fathers to the sectionest 1991" and BKKS member have I seen this practice that you speak of nor are they handled with dry hands.
Infact about the only time a koi's mucus layer is slightly damaged is when a koi is scraped to check for parasites and if found to enable the best in treatments they are then sprayed with propolis and released .
We do not yank them out of their enviroments with hooks after sometimes upwards of an hour struggling on the end of the line becoming stressed to the eyeballs.
Sorry my friend but we rather guide them towards the surface with one of those large flat nets that you must have seen around peoples ponds.
They are then scooped up in a pre wet sock net and placed carefully in a large benching bowl that has been pre treated with anesthesia .
The only time they are handled is when they are placed onto the treatments mat with wet hands, then back in the pond to come around still in the hands until the koi is strong enough to come round and is able to swim free of your hands.
Al koi are QT'd on a routine basis especially because of KHV something which is rife in my carp fishing lakes "yet we koi keepers are often blamed for intoducing it into these lake"which we have not beause we again have a duty by law to report this to DERFA and it is believe the bad practice of moving Carp between countries and lakes is what brought about KHV in Wild Carp and it was tracked back to a specific offender in france , if you read the latest on KHV or the Koi Herpes Virus, then you'll know it is rife throught these lakes in the UK strange isnt it that our ponds remain KHV clear this is because of good Quarentine practice by not only the dealerships and the hobbuist combined .
Where are these culprit koi that have spread the disease through these lakes the truth is they arent there!!!!...........
I wouldnt catch take and put a wild carp in my pond either that way there would be a danger of introducing SVC or Spring Viraemia of Carp which is common to the wild species of carp.
The only time I have ever seen koi laid out on the grass in nets or otherwise on slabs are in books or on sites like the one we are on, only the reason they have been laid out in books or by their owners is because they are already dead and its to take photo's of these koi to use as either teaching aids or to show people like ourselves to see possibly if we can identify what possibly killed them .Perhaps thats what you have seen in the past.
One final word this good practice of handling and treating koi isnt just a UK thing its in AKCA litrature SAKKS litrature and any other country where there are organisations like the BKKS.
Are you a member , if not ty joining us you'll soon learn we all practice good fish husbandry .

Dave

 

[crsublette]

Dave, I don't know... Although I know there are many folk that also use a sock net to get the fish into the QT, there are quite many hobbyists, including breeders I have seen do it, who just lift fish with their forearms and bare hands, and, as gently as they can, then moving the fish back into the pond. I always thought it was odd that transporting fish with their forearms and hands, in a cradle style, from tank to tank

Most anglers that fish for carp take much better care of the fish on the bank than most hobbyist fish keepers would ever do with anti-slime removal padded mats... Why is it that mats that anglers use to protect the fish are not widely used by the hobbyist fish keeper when fish are removed for treatment?

I have wondered the same.

I am not "really big into" fishing for tournaments or anything like that, but I do enjoy going out camping and fishing for a few days, which most the fish are just "catch & release". I have gone to a few fish shows and they always show the special contraptions, special gloves, mats, and other stuff so to properly handle the fish, by being careful to not remove any of the fish's slims that results from simply holding them, while taking the hook out so to throw them back into the water. So, when I first got into this hobby and noticed folk not using these techniques, I was kind of surprised; although, these hobbyists are doing quite fine with keeping their fish healthy. It was just something that I noticed rather quick when first starting this hobby...


But... yeah, Dave is corect that, if the fish was just laying on the ground, then it is most likely that the fish is dead.

 

[Dave 54]

Dave, I don't know... Although I know there are many folk that also use a sock net to get the fish into the QT, there are quite many hobbyists, including breeders I have seen do it, who just lift fish with their forearms and bare hands, and, as gently as they can, then moving the fish back into the pond. I always thought it was odd that transporting fish with their forearms and hands, in a cradle style, from tank to tank







I have wondered the same.

I am not "really big into" fishing for tournaments or anything like that, but I do enjoy going out camping and fishing for a few days, which most the fish are just "catch & release". I have gone to a few fish shows and they always show the special contraptions, special gloves, mats, and other stuff so to properly handle the fish, by being careful to not remove any of the fish's slims that results from simply holding them, while taking the hook out so to throw them back into the water. So, when I first got into this hobby and noticed folk not using these techniques, I was kind of surprised; although, these hobbyists are doing quite fine with keeping their fish healthy. It was just something that I noticed rather quick when first starting this hobby...


But... yeah, Dave is corect that, if the fish was just laying on the ground, then it is most likely that the fish is dead.

Quite true Charles it is a method used by dealers and some koi keepers, if you look to the Japanese breeders you'll find this is done with all large koi Charles but again great care is taken when using this method and I'll garentee you from thier hands to their elbow is wet .
The sock is employed with the smaller koi should my largest koi fall ill and need treatment I would then use the arm cradling method ,
If you note the fish is always pointing inwards towards the body of the person handling it simply because of the power they can generate and thus fly out of the handlers hands one trick employed is to first counter(first one way then the other) turn the koi a few times, another to put your thumb in its mouth then turn it upside down for a moment before carrying it upright again.to the pond or QT unit.
Anything up to 12" we use the sock which is strictly hands off
As such VanDiesil was wrong on both counts and I hope and pray if he see's this bad practice he will be a gentleman and correct these people but I'll tell you now if there are people out there in his neck of the woods ( a good place I have had the pleasure of spending a leave in Hallaton during bottle kicking, "a quaint game played between three villages with a small barrel of ale", involving hundereds of people )
However I digress if there are people in his neck of the woods then they are not BKKS or FBAS thats for sure.

Dave

 

[VanDiesil]

Dave, it was not my intention to create an argument, but just observations I have seen in the past. If handling has moved on in recent years, then I apologise for pointing out things I have witnessed in the past and in publications in the past. I understand that clubs and members may take more care of their fish (especially the enthusiast with fish costing thousands of pounds). I will not accept any mishandling of fish be it in people's hobbies in ponds or aquariums, and especially on the bank of the lakes I frequent. I have had to ban more people than I care to recall for mishandling fish on the bank or not having the basic equipment that are in the rules of the fishery.

I would not move fish from ANY lake, river, canal, pool, etc unless I know the history of the stock. The carp I have in my pond have come from a friends stock pond and his fish are regularly tested due to he sells them to other fisheries and they have to be tested by the EA for the Section 30 paperwork. As for KHV, it originated from Israel according to contacts within DEFRA and believe it or not a lot of the Koi in the UK (Israeli ones) are vaccinated with the antibodies to try to prevent the full blown disease. The only problem with this is that if stocked alongside non-vaccinated fish the actual virus can be passed on to them (hence why DEFRA/CEFAS have lists of fisheries that are known to be infected and will not allow fish to be introduced or removed from them). I will not step foot on ANY of the fisheries on the DEFRA/CEFAS lists (I get regular updates of the list and they can be found on the websites), and any gear that was used on the fisheries if not known or added to the list after fishing the, has been burnt - including boots, etc. If you want the name of the company that supply's the Israeli koi that have been vaccinated, I am willing to pass it on to you Dave via a private message. I certainly wouldn't take the risk in having fish from that supplier being stocked in to any of my ponds! SVC though is a different matter entirely as that can easily be spread by water fowl, and I always make sure that my angling equipment has been left to dry in natural sunlight to ensure that no waterborne disease can be transferred between venues. If in doubt, I take different kit with me such as nets, mats, slings, etc so there is no risk. I have even gone down the route of replacing net meshes and mats/slings and burning the old ones as mentioned if there has been any doubt in my mind.

If I was a serious Koi keeper (I prefer the natural "wild" carp colourations and scale patterns), then I would join the BKKS or similar groups.

Again, it was not my intention to start an argument, and if any offence was taken, please accept my apologies, as it was not intended.