ELECTRICAL CONSIDERATIONS

[Mmathis]

I joined back in the spring/summer, but haven't been active -- I'll be making a pond for my box turtles that will have depth (for filtration purposes), but a "false bottom" as boxies only need a few inches of water (land turtles).

Getting ready to plan this for the spring. Have lots of questions but will submit them over time. First concern now, is that we're going to need to have an extra circuit installed outside. Our only outdoor outlet gets easily overloaded, plus it's not a GFI. So, is that a good place to start: new circuit, GFI outlet?

Next is the distance from the house. I know you want to have your pump, etc., as close to your outlet as possible, avoiding extension cords (if possible), but the turtles' habitat is maybe 50' away. How best to handle that?

 

[sissy]

You could have your conduit run underground and have a dedicated circuit for the turtle pond and if your going that far why not have a whole house surge protector put in .I have a close electrical box for my pond with 6 outlets better more than not enough ,this way it is a one time fee no getting the guy who does the electrical coming back again .My son did mine and he put it on a 6x6 post in the ground cemented of course and ran the conduit up the post to the box.It has a cover for each outlet with an opening in the bottom for the cord and then the whole set up was put in another box with a cover and is up off the ground by 18 inches by code here .He said I paid for someone to do it it would cost around 300 hundred but he is a contractor .Having children pays off LOL

 

[HARO]

The black flexible pipe that comes in rolls makes a great conduit for running electrical lines outside. I used the 1" size to get power to my pigeon loft, a distance of about 150'. Bury the pipe, then use a shop-vac to pull a nylon line through it. Attach the cable to the line and pull it through. Are you familiar with household wiring? John

 

[Mmathis]

Sorry, not a DYIer when it comes to electrical stuff -- will gladly pay the extra.... Mainly just need an idea of what might need to be done.

 

[sissy]

most times it is better to leave things like that for a professinal as it can be a hair raising experience .Thats why getting quotes for it cjhecking references and make sure you get 3 quotes unless you know there work or they have done work you have seen or know first hand about .Never take chances with shoddy work and always think to the future .When you have them there extras are always better ,once and done because if they have to come back and put more outlets in that is just more money .I think I have enough outlets but I gave birth to my electrician so he owes me big time .LOL

 

[herzausstahl]

Sissy,
That is a problem I am already running into, not enough outlets, luckily though I have an electrician I use that has gone into business for himself. My pond is on its own separate line from the breaker box, on a GFI. I should be able to run another 2-4 outlets off the box I have out there since I used the thicker gauge wire and put it on its own circuit, plus my overall usage will still be well below 1000 watts so not bad (figure your average oven uses 1500 when its on and your average 6 outlet surge protector is rated for 1500). Fortunately I shouldn't have to call him back to add the outlets since my father in law can do this work. But it helps to have an electrician in the family! So Mmathis, I would add at least a couple more outlets than you think you need just so they are there if you ever do need them. I would do as Sissy says and get a few estimates from a couple electricians. Tell them what you want and see what they say. At any rate make sure it is GFI protected somehow since you will be using it near water.

 

[Waterbug]

Because the current outdoor outlet is already overloaded you can't run another "circuit" from it. It wouldn't be a new circuit it would just be an extension.

If there's another circuit inside the house that isn't maxed out the electrician could tap into it and install a outdoor GFI outlet. I don't know your local building code and whether that would be allowed. I know most people hate the government and all but pulling a permit is a pretty good investment. They're really just trying to save your life and property.

The next choice is to create a new circuit, a real circuit. A new breaker is added to the panel and a wire run to wherever you want the outlet. Generally the electrician will try to run the wire though the attic or crawl space if you have one. National code for buried electric is 6" for metal conduit, 18" for PVC conduit, and 24" for direct bury cable called UF. But local code could be different. Even if you don't pull a permit you can call the building department and ask what the requirement is. That way when your electrician tells you a couple of inches is fine you'll know to hire someone else. Without a permit you should at least do your own inspection making sure the trench is the right depth before the cable is laid. A good electrician will be proud to show off their work.

As I mentioned, you'll have several choices of wire and/or conduit. All are fine. You should go to the hardware store to see the differences so when the electrician lays the wire you're not ripped off. The building inspector will do that for you if you get a permit.

For the wire size you get to choose 15 amp and uses 14 gauge wire. Or 20 amp and 12 gauge wire. 20 amp alows more stuff to be plugged in and running than 15 amps. 15 amp would be normal, but it depends on your needs. 20 costs more, but not much. It is OK for the electrician to install a 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp circuit. Can't put 20 amp outlets on a 15 amp circuit but there's little reason for the electrician to do that. Building inspector should check all that for you.

Running a new circuit (from the panel) is best if location isn't too bad. If the electrician taps into an outlet inside the house there's a chance of holes in the wall and it generally isn't the electrician's job to fix the holes. The other nice thing about a new circuit is the breaker could be a GFI breaker, depends on your panel. That's best because GFI outlets don't always last very long. I replace a lot of them.

And with a new circuit it would be easy to give you a one or more new outdoor outlets and taking some load off the current outdoor circuit.

Surge protection is a whole other deal and not very useful for outdoor outlets, but that's you choice.

Here's a trick...for a small pond in the middle of a lawn I don't like the look of an outlet. So instead I run 2 pipes from the pond to wherever the outlet is located. I create a small reservoir there, connect the pipes. The water in the reservoir does have to be at the same level as the pond. Put the pump into the reservoir and you're good to go. Bring the pump to the outlet instead of the outlet to the pond.

But this trick won't work in this case because there's no useable outlet.

 

[Waterbug]

I forgot...if a new circuit is added the electrician is not allowed to just add another wire to an existing breaker. Sometimes the panel is full or they're trying to save a couple of bucks. Inspector will check that too...if you're seeing a pattern, the inspector can save you a lot of time and make sure you get what you paid for. However not all inspectors are great.

 

[Mmathis]

Waterbug: thanks for all the info! Had no idea there was so much involved, but as far as electrical things go, I leave that to the pros (we do have an electrician we trust). My turtles have just dug in for the winter, so I have 5-6 months to plan & get things done.

I like the idea of a GFI circuit.

Thanks to everyone else, too. Don't know anyone with a pond to go to for advice.

 

[sissy]

A whole house surge protector is worth the money it costs as I kmow that already after my house in NJ got hit by lightning and Ilost 1 tv and a fridge and a puter ,I was lucky it was overed by insurance but after that the piece of mind is worth it .You can easly hide the electrical boxes with a fake rock and you can easly make that also by watching you tube video's .I have made 3 fake rocks .Gfi outlets in wet areas are law so that is set in stone .I saw one that had just set the wire in the ground .do not allow that always put it in conduit .

 

[taherrmann4]

I would run the electric out to your pond and hide the electrical box. You will most likely be landscaping around it all anyway so within a year depending on what you plant you will not even notice it. You may also want lighting around it or an air pump etc. better to have it there in the long run.

 

[sissy]

Hide and seek for your electrical outlet box tmann .It is true too .Took me 5 minutes to find one of my boxes and I decided to put one of those orange flags on a metal wire up to find it the next time .I will make a rock for that one it is not by my pond it is in one of my gardens and the plants hid it and I could not find it

 

[Catfishnut]

Because the current outdoor outlet is already overloaded you can't run another "circuit" from it. It wouldn't be a new circuit it would just be an extension.

If there's another circuit inside the house that isn't maxed out the electrician could tap into it and install a outdoor GFI outlet. I don't know your local building code and whether that would be allowed. I know most people hate the government and all but pulling a permit is a pretty good investment. They're really just trying to save your life and property.

My advice regarding permits is to get one regardless of whatever you do. If you happen to sell your home, that circuit will be under scrutiny by any inspector and you will have to pay for it in the end in order to sell your home (unless you remove it before then). If you cannot prove that you had a permit to install it, they may make you remove it, if they detect it... I don't know if they would fine you anything, but some inspectors can really make your life difficult if they find out you went around them in some way. I have heard some "horror" stories about certain inspectors.

The next choice is to create a new circuit, a real circuit. A new breaker is added to the panel and a wire run to wherever you want the outlet. Generally the electrician will try to run the wire though the attic or crawl space if you have one. National code for buried electric is 6" for metal conduit, 18" for PVC conduit, and 24" for direct bury cable called UF. But local code could be different. Even if you don't pull a permit you can call the building department and ask what the requirement is. That way when your electrician tells you a couple of inches is fine you'll know to hire someone else. Without a permit you should at least do your own inspection making sure the trench is the right depth before the cable is laid. A good electrician will be proud to show off their work.

The above would also be my recommendation. If it is possible that you have a BLANK slot for a new breaker. If not, the electrician might map out the existing wiring and sometimes find a circuit breaker that is feeding something rather stupid (in older homes mostly). Such as one circuit breaker that feeds two or three bedroom outlets and one that feeds a only a closet light.
These feeds could be combined into one, and the leftover circuit breaker replaced with a higher amperage one to feed your pond circuit.

As I mentioned, you'll have several choices of wire and/or conduit. All are fine. You should go to the hardware store to see the differences so when the electrician lays the wire you're not ripped off. The building inspector will do that for you if you get a permit.

Yet another pro point for getting a permit.

For the wire size you get to choose 15 amp and uses 14 gauge wire. Or 20 amp and 12 gauge wire. 20 amp alows more stuff to be plugged in and running than 15 amps. 15 amp would be normal, but it depends on your needs. 20 costs more, but not much. It is OK for the electrician to install a 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp circuit. Can't put 20 amp outlets on a 15 amp circuit but there's little reason for the electrician to do that. Building inspector should check all that for you.

Running a new circuit (from the panel) is best if location isn't too bad. If the electrician taps into an outlet inside the house there's a chance of holes in the wall and it generally isn't the electrician's job to fix the holes. The other nice thing about a new circuit is the breaker could be a GFI breaker, depends on your panel. That's best because GFI outlets don't always last very long. I replace a lot of them. And with a new circuit it would be easy to give you a one or more new outdoor outlets and taking some load off the current outdoor circuit.

Surge protection is a whole other deal and not very useful for outdoor outlets, but that's you choice.

Also, all your outlets (if you install them outdoors), should have waterproof enclosures or housings, just to keep the elements of nature out. And, GFCI outlets should be used at each outdoor outlet.

Oh, and before you tell the electrician what you need now, consider what you MIGHT want to add on in the future. Just in case you desire room to grow and expand. The electrician will always oversize your circuit to accomodate a bit of extra load, but if you want plenty of expansion freedom, get it done right away as it will cost you a lot more to do it twice.

Gordy

 

[markd]

Also, all your outlets (if you install them outdoors), should have waterproof enclosures or housings, just to keep the elements of nature out. And, GFCI outlets should be used at each outdoor outlet.

Yes on the waterproof housings- and make sure they are the "in use" type that seal even with stuff plugged in.
No on the GFCI at every outlet- you typically just need one as long as all the other outlets are downstream.

 

[Catfishnut]

Yes on the waterproof housings- and make sure they are the "in use" type that seal even with stuff plugged in.
No on the GFCI at every outlet- you typically just need one as long as all the other outlets are downstream.

Mark,

In most cases, the GFCI outlets would probably operate this way just fine for personal safety, but NEC code supercedes this. What the NEC states is law and is what a person should follow to be legally safe. I would not take any chances or shortcuts with any electrical system. It not only protects you and your fish and your equipment from harm, but it also protects you in the eyes of the law. If you skimped, and some neighbor kid came over and played in your pond and got electrocuted, you don't want to answer to that charge. Let it be the equipment mfg. and the electrician and the inspector who have the ultimate authority and responsibility here.

i.e "They said it was safe, they are licensed and trained to know how to do this and I paid them for their expertise to ensure it to be safe. Therefore I am not at fault."

There are many areas of life that the government should keep their noses out of, but this is one area that I am glad to agree with them upon. Don't take the chance, get it done right and according to NEC and local codes right off, then you have nothing to worry about. You really have too much at stake to leave this to chance and cut corners.

Please, excuse me for being so serious on this issue, but I honestly think that it is necessary. I work with electricity for a living, from micro and millivolts up to 480 volt three phase, 400 ampere circuits and even specialized circuits that operate with 15,000 to 20,000 volts. You can never be TOO safe.

Gordy