Fish dead after treating pond with AlgoRem

Discussion in 'Water Chemistry' started by Linda Schubert, Jun 20, 2016.

  1. Linda Schubert

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    This is very true, but the MSDS for a product does list (usually) any environmental toxicity levels. These are always left off any product labeling.
    And, crsublette, you are correct that MSDS do not contain usage instructions AND a MSDS will provide no benefit to those that do not read usage instructions.
    However, for those pondkeepers that do read instructions (the majority I will venture) a product MSDS can inform them of exactly what they are putting into their ponds and what the effects may be on other aquatic organisms. (Remember I am talking about eco-ponds). They may decide to avail themselves of other treatment options.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Jul 10, 2016
    #21
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  2. Linda Schubert

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Here is the environmental information from the Algorem MSDS.

    "12 Ecological information:
    · General notes:
    Water hazard class 1 (German Regulation) (Self-assessment): slightly hazardous for water.
    Do not allow undiluted product or large quantities of it to reach ground water, water bodies or sewage
    system."

    "slightly hazardous"....how much more vague could this statement be?

    The second sentence piques a little thought.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Jul 10, 2016
    #22
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  3. Linda Schubert

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
    crsublette, Jul 10, 2016
    #23
  4. Linda Schubert

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    Exactly.... so if your supposition is correct about MSDS and folk's due diligence...

    ...then just those statements alone (rather than a "more complete/accurate MSDS") should be just enough for them "to avail themselves of other treatment options." ...

    Correct?
     
    crsublette, Jul 10, 2016
    #24
  5. Linda Schubert

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    crsublette, Jul 10, 2016
    #25
  6. Linda Schubert

    Dave 54

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    AlgoRem does have instructions you peal back its on the inside of the sticker on the back of the bottle you just peal the sticker back and read the instructions , it is safe to use as long as the OP and others who have had fish deaths follow the instructions to the letter i;e that you use it in the morning add extra airstones and at regular intervals check how your fish be they koi or goldfish.
    Val and I have used it from time to time with no ill effects to our koi whatsoever.
    Did the OP know the exact gallonage of their pond I'm wondering did the OP also add the AlgoRem with the solution mixed with pondwater in a watering can or pour it into the pond without ?
    The instructions state you must pour the mixture all around the pond .
    Many people do not seem too know their ponds exact gallonage and this is where mistakes often happen, not only with AlgRem but with all the chemicals we use on the pond [when a pond is completed it makes good sense to find the exact gallonage this can be done by buying a digital water meter via Amazon] :-

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gardena-81...68124138&sr=1-4&keywords=Digital+water+meters
    .
    This is the third inscidence I've read about on GPF this summer now either they are incorrectly using it , one used it in the evening the other didnt mix it with pond water before applying it to the pond , so I ask what mistakes did the OP make as they didnt find the instructions on the inside of the back stricker.
    We are quite happy using this product and provided instructions are followed to the letter there should be "NO" fatalities
    If we did not think this product safe we would not use it on our pond , do you think we would risk loosing our 30 year old koi and the answer to that would be "NO"

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
    Dave 54, Jul 10, 2016
    #26
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  7. Linda Schubert

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    All due respect, Dave54, but although this product may be safe for fish when used according to instructions, it is not stated to be safe for all other aquatic organisms. Many others have ponds to provide habitat to other than just fish. In these ponds it is paramount to keep all of the occupants healthy and thriving. Many of the products on the market today do not make a distinction between these two (2) major types of ponds in promoting their products. They should because saying that a product is safe for fish is quite misleading without clarifying that statement to include the product's potential effects on all other aquatic organisms.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Jul 10, 2016
    #27
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  8. Linda Schubert

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    It would certainly encourage me to look for other options.

    A more complete MSDS would avail the reader of greater detail regarding the nature of the product..... good or bad.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Jul 10, 2016
    #28
  9. Linda Schubert

    Dave 54

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    Meyer AlgoRem is stated as being safe for fish and plants but not for sturgeons the problem here is not the product itself but the way it is applied to the pond .
    The OP states
    All bottles carry instructions as previosly stated on the inside of the back sticker it clearly states before you use this product refer to the nside of the peel back lablel, es[pecially in soft water areas or following periods of heavy rainfallthe dosage instructions are as follows add 10ml to 200 litres [44 gallons imperial] of water , to get the best results AlgoRem needs to be mixed with the pond water warnings are as follows severe algae problems , In ponds suffering from severe green water it is important to remove the clumps of algae that form following treatment , this is to prevent the algae consuming Oxygen , which can lead to fish casping at the surface .
    Soft water
    In very soft water AlgoRem may cause the Ph [acidity] of the water to fluctuate , this can adversely affect fish causing them to gasp at the surface for these reasons do not use algoRem in ponds with a carbonate hardness of less than 3dh [degrees of hardness t goes on to say this can easily be tested using a Kh test kit , we recomend testing if you suspect your pond may contain softwater [instructions I have to follow because I'm in a softwater area even though I use Kusuri Lthaqua to correct my Kh ] it then gives you reasons for softwater such as your region revieving very soft tap water [as we do ] the pond has been filled with rainwater or heavy rainfall has been experianced and lastly the water in the pond has not been changed for a very long time .I wonder if the three people weve seen suffering losses can answer if they checked this or not .
    In hard water areas hardness can easily be increased with a partial waterchange allowing for the safeuse of AlgoRem @Linda Schubert could you fill us in on what you did checked measured etc what gallonage your pond is not guesswork but acctual gallonage as I'd like to get to to the bottom of this and find what mistake or mistakes you made
    @Linda Schubert being a koi keeper for the last thirty years or more my heart does go out to you "I might sound harsh but I'm not I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why three people have lost fish to this product yet when weve used it weve had no problems with it at all

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
    Dave 54, Jul 10, 2016
    #29
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  10. Linda Schubert

    Harvey Schneider

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    Having worked in government regulated industries (medical and aviation) I know that seemingly vague terms like slightly and moderately do actually have definitions. Unfortunately, unless you read the actual government regulation you don't know what that definition is. In the US, the cfr (code of federal regulations literally fills a library and finding the applicable documents can take hours for the uninitiated to do. Why all of this is cloaked in ambiguous terms and well hidden definitions, only the government and their industry allies know for sure.
    All of this aside, quick fixes are often the cause of more problems. Unless the nutrient levels in a pond are reduced, the algae will quickly return, and if the nutrient levels are reduced the algae will slowly disappear. If the nutrient levels hadn''t gotten out of balance in the first place, the algae wouldn't gotten out of hand. Partial water changes and competition for nutrients by higher plant forms can do a lot to keep algae under control. Not over stocking your pond can do even more.
     
    Harvey Schneider, Jul 10, 2016
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  11. Linda Schubert

    Dave 54

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    Whilst I agree with most of what you say @Harvey Schneider you are not taking into consideration on the sighting of the pond i;e is the pond in direct sunlight , does it have cover, [our own pond is a formal UK koi pond which means it has no plants in it] .
    Nor if the persons making these posts are novices or experianced fish keepers or have correctly read the instructions as to how to use AlgoRem.
    Or even what feed they give their fish [for instance our own feed has 40% nutrients as with our own summer feed etc], we dont know what filtration they have on the pond if extra airstones were added at the start
    It appears with two of these cases that instructions where not followed to the letter , the treatment was put in the pond at the wrong time of day it clearly states morning not afternoon or evening again this was in two cases the fish were not checked on it clearly states that they should have .
    You yourself should know that we never stop learning in this hobby and sometimes through the early years mistakes can and are infact made.
    As such all this has to be taken into consideration before we make asumptions

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Jul 10, 2016
    #31
  12. Linda Schubert

    Dave 54

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  13. Linda Schubert

    Harvey Schneider

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    You are quite right. There are a lot of variables to be taken into account and as a result there are no hard a fast rules. Underlying principles are a good place to start.
     
    Harvey Schneider, Jul 10, 2016
    #33
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  14. Linda Schubert

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    This is absolutely true, yet the MSDS for other products will contain specific language as in the MSDS for Phycomycin that crsublette posted a link to. A lot of the problem with the language and detail in a MSDS for a produce cn be traced back to the country of origin. Each country will have its own regulation concerning required content and detail of a product's MSDS. The MSDS from Tetra apparently originated in Germany where the term "slight" may have an entirely different meaning than in another country.
    But all of that strays from the point that I am trying to make.That being that while many pond treatment products may or may not be (usually the former) ambiguous in their supplied information on the safety of a product as regards fish, they are totally lacking in providing any information or warnings for the safety of other creatures, micro-, meio- or macro- that may inhabit an eco-pond. All amphibians are quite sensitive to any chemical or pollutant introduced to a pond. Many species of zoo-plankton have a very low resistance to these same chemicals. In an eco-pond specie diversity and richness at the lower trophic levels is the key to biological stability. Negatively alter this balance and problems surely originate.
    Bottom line, manufacturer's supply inadequate and incomplete information on the safety of their products as applied to aquatic creatures other than fish. This should change!
     
    Meyer Jordan, Jul 10, 2016
    #34
  15. Linda Schubert

    Mmathis TurtleMommy

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    @Linda Schubert We haven't heard any more from you since your original post. How many fish did you lose and what was your water volume, filtration, etc?
     
    Mmathis, Jul 11, 2016
    #35
  16. Linda Schubert

    budgenator

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    You would think that there would be an EPA registration number on AlgoRem that we could cross-reference to get more info; maybe I'll stop at PetSmart on the way home and see what I can sleuth out on google later.
     
    budgenator, Jul 27, 2016
    #36
  17. Linda Schubert

    Rod

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    Not being an expert , fish keeping but moved to the Isle of Man in 1999 where I bought a farmhouse with a large fishpond whi had a number of fish in it, some very mature (ghost Carp)? I have changed the water regularly and cleaned it out with no problems except the ovation die off in a small number of cases.
    Last week the water was getting particularly green, so Igoogled it and came up with tetra pond algorem.
    With no real instructions I read the dosage as being add 10ml to 200 ltres of pond water.
    ( I then peeled back the label as instructed to find there was nothing on the back of it.
    I have since found if you peel it up from the bottom .....they do exist!!!
    Logic told me to increase the amount to nearer the volume of my pond which I did and a few hour later the water was getting clear, by morning two large Carp were struggling and all were swimming to the top of the water struggling to breath.
    Eventually most died. However I then started changing the water, and so far three have survived.
    No where does it tell me how to introduce it into the pond, so the fish which have been around for over 20 years are no longer!
    Makeing the instructions More easily found would have been very helpful.
     
    Rod, Jul 31, 2017
    #37
  18. Linda Schubert

    Magzire

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    That stuff should be banned!
    When i used it my pond it turned milky white for two days. Then all the crap clumped together.
    Just buy a powerful UV and be done with it
     
    Magzire, Jul 31, 2017
    #38
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