Green algae experiment.

[dieselplower]

It was pointed out to me in a private message that the word spin you're trying for was the phrase "said you could not prove". I can't prove many things. I can't prove the earth is round. Other people can/have which I can learn about and decide whether I choose to believe them or not.

Allelopathy has been proven at least to me and many people. Whether allelopathy is used by algae in freshwater ponds has been proven or disproved I don't know. Maybe it has been and I haven't run into the research yet.It certainly has been proven in saltwater algae. And then of course even if proven in freshwater algae the science haters can always say it was only proved for a few species. Some people just prefer fantasy. It's an easier read that's for sure.

It is the research already done on allelopathy in many plant species that supports my belief it's occurring in ponds. It fits way better than other theories. I mean there hasn't been a study done on every single species of green plant to determine if they all use photosynthesis, but I'm OK in believing all green plants use photosynthesis. Maybe someday someone will discover a green plant that doesn't use photosynthesis (bacteria type "plants" aside) and I'll adjust by view. But between now and I'm OK with believing current research.

I mean when compared to "plants starve algae" repeated thousands of times and not once anyone bothering to offer any kind of test at all and plus all the studies that show green water ponds have near zero nutrient levels while clear have high, plus, plus, plus. Come on, it isn't even close.

Or that pumps clear ponds. Or barley. Or peroxide. Or caterpillar droppings. Or magnets. Or bacteria in a bottle. Or pH pill. None have any science at all behind them and plenty of science disproving them. I just down see the point of ignoring science if a person wants to understand these things.

Lol, waterbug, rest assured whoever sent you that message has way too much time on their hands, and no idea what I meant. I am just recently hearing you talk about this chemical and was just looking for clarification.

 

[crsublette]

Interesting stuff

So this begs the question, should I abort my plans to disinfect the plants with potassium permanganate, for parasites and such, but in so doing I kill all the good stuff (string algae I assume in this case) that is somehow kill the green algae?

Yep, there are pluses and minuses to most procedures...

In the context of killing the "good" stuff... I suppose this depends on preference.... Do you prefer trying to control string algae blooms or green water algae blooms?

Even when I started from a sanitized pond liner with high ammonia fish-less cycling, I never could get the floating green water algae to bloom. So, I never had the luxury of not dealing with string algae blooms.

 

[springknee]

could be that the suspend algae in the tank just settled to the bottom since there was no circulation.

 

[crsublette]

I dump all the water in the container out. Refilled it again, with green pond water, to see if it would happen again. Just curious.

Btw, I did test for nitrites and nitrates, both were zero.

The better test would be to simply place the water lilies in the pond and then report exactly how long it took for the green water pond to become completely clear.

 

[crsublette]

There's the $64,000 question. Many people want to keep string algae out of their pond as long as possible. Controlling green water is super easy and cheap today thanks to UV filters. So most people would see no benefit to string algae.

I wonder if you could even kill all the string algae with PP. Treated ponds seem to bounce back fast.

Controlling green water was super easy back in the day as well with PP treatments, quite safe on plants, and adds micro-nutrients to the water. Potassium permanganate (PP) is a very old school treatment and even safe for plants as long as proper instruments are used to dose the water. Yes, PP even kills most, if not all, the string algae to the extent that some treated ponds only need treatment once or twice a year. This is proven to be true day in and day out in koiphen (dot) com. The only reason others do weekly low dose schedules of the stuff is to zap various other organics.

Actually, large pond plant farmers actually do PP treatments prior to sending the plants to their distributors. Any algae that grows on the plants is due to the plant waiting to be sold at the retailers. Yes, even in greenhouse retailers, I have seen both string algae and floating algae water in the same tubs.

For anyone interested, PP it is a quite dangerous oxidizer so gram scales and very good instructions must be followed. PP was also responsible for killing many fish back in the day. For anyone curious, I have references threads that explains the process quite well and talks about the dangers of using it at the bottom of post#22 in thread "Took over existing pond, fighting algae for weeks now".

 

[Waterbug]

Controlling green water was super easy back in the day as well with PP treatments

You have a different scale of easy than I do. Eating a donuts is easy. In the context of a Water Gardening forum where most people don't even test water parameters or have any idea how many gallons of water they have I think suggesting PP is pretty twisted. I mean I agree, you gave a disclaimer so you're covered, but wow.

In serious forums like most Koi forums, many aquarium forums, lake management forums, etc., sure PP is an appropriate subject. But in a Water Garden forum...wow.

, quite safe on plants,

Sure if the dose is correct. Adding chlorine is also plant safe if the dose is correct. Adding sulfuric acid if the dose is correct. Shooting an apple off of someone's head with an arrow is safe if you don't miss...or get lucky and miss in the right direction.

and adds micro-nutrients to the water.

Yep. Can't really think of a more expensive or difficult way to get the same results...oh wait...thermonuclear blast will also release micro-nutrients.

Potassium permanganate (PP) is a very old school treatment and even safe for plants as long as proper instruments are used to dose the water. Yes, PP even kills most, if not all, the string algae to the extent that some treated ponds only need treatment once or twice a year. This is proven to be true day in and day out in koiphen (dot) com. The only reason others do weekly low dose schedules of the stuff is to zap various other organics.

Actually, large pond plant farmers actually do PP treatments prior to sending the plants to their distributors. Any algae that grows on the plants is due to the plant waiting to be sold at the retailers. Yes, even in greenhouse retailers, I have seen both string algae and floating algae water in the same tubs.

For anyone interested, PP it is a quite dangerous oxidizer so gram scales and very good instructions must be followed. PP was also responsible for killing many fish back in the day. For anyone curious, I have references threads that explains the process quite well and talks about the dangers of using it at the bottom of post#22 in thread "Took over existing pond, fighting algae for weeks now".

PP was not only responsible for killing many fish back in the day but is also responsible for killing fish in the present day because 3 things have remained the same in that time span. Fish, PP and the ability of people to make a mistake.

There are way safer oxidizers imo if people want to go down that path.

My own disclaimer, I have used solid PP which I''m referring to. I've used it in ponds and in woodworking and masonry. IMO it is not easy to use..even with experience. Lets forget fish and plant safe and think about people. IMO it takes a lot of safety equipment and care to not harm yourself.

PP is safe at some levels. It's used to treat drinking water. At the level to dip plants it's pretty safe. But when you step up to pond size applications we're talking about a lot, the risk increases a lot.

Being an oxidizer it can be hard on metal. Like if you have screws holding on a bulkhead fitting like a skimmer, BD, TPRs. Any metal in pumps. Especially with repeated use. Basically it reduces the lifespan of metal.

Kiss your bio filter goodbye. If you have a separate bio filter, stream, waterfall, etc., that can be isolated OK. But you still lose all bio filtering inside the pond which can be a lot. In a Koi Pond this may not be a big deal since they generally have very serious bio filters, which is why PP is an appropriate subject imo in those forums. But for a Water Garden this is a serious risk because all, or almost all bio filtering happens in the pond. It's fine and dandy to think a Skippy or a bog or some other thing is a bio filter...until you actually need it. Lose the pond's bio filter and you may find your "bio filter" isn't really up to the task (depending on your fish load/feeding rate).

Don't use a UV filter and your water was clear? Expect an algae bloom afterward. Not to worry you can PP that too...every few weeks.

Different kinds and sizes of fish have different O2 requirements. You can follow whatever directions you happen to run into online (and there are many) and not realize those directions are by a specific person for a specific use. Welcome to the internet. So when your prize fish (trout, sturgeon, etc.) goes belly up you will then know those directions weren't for your kind/size of fish. Oops.

Most directions will tell you to use sufficient aeration. Good idea. What is sufficient aeration? Well that's easy to measure. If your all fish die in the first few minutes of treatment there was insufficient aeration. Buy more fish, increase aeration and repeat. Easy. That's called "gaining experience". After you lose a few ponds full of fish you will indeed be experienced enough to use PP.

PP can react with some other not uncommon chemicals which can result in very powerful explosions so IMO storage is a real issue. I created a small concrete block lined pit in the backyard away from the house and posted a warning sign mainly for the fire department as it poses a great risk to them.

These are only a few issue off the top of my head. I'm sure you will find many more online. Very easy to use and very easy to get wrong.

PP isn't for first timer who never did anything like this before. If you have worked with say acid, measuring and monitoring then you have some experience measuring and more importantly seen what mistakes can do, then yeah, PP might be for you to try. But if you're like 99% of people reading any Water Garden site who don't know even how many gallons of water your pond has, and I'm not talking "I think my pond is 8x7 and about 3' deep", I'm talking "know", then PP is a really really bad idea imo.

Unless of course you're like me and like to try stuff mainly for the stake of learning. But hopefully you'll be smart enough to start slow on tanks with plants just to get used to working with this stuff, measuring and getting experience with how you make mistakes so you can improve those procedures,. Then move to tanks with fish you're OK risking. Only move to your prize fish when you feel comfortable. These things can be great fun and an enjoyable part of the hobby. They can also be instantly tragic and result in a pond being filled in forever and an image burned into your mind that is not pleasant.

However, with that experience you will also know there is absolutely no reason to use PP for green water algae or string algae. You will understand there are way, way, easier and cheaper options for those issues.

Beware of what you read online. Seriously.

 

[crsublette]

Thanks for the good disclaimer ....

... the fear mongering is unwarranted since we are only taking about extremely low concentrations of PP even in water gardens where the organics level is quite high. The "beware of explosions while in storage" is a new fear mongering technique that I have not heard of for a while.


Correct, if folk can not follow instructions to the letter, then do not use the stuff. Yes, in the correct hands, it is super easy stuff to use.


As stated in post#22 in thread "Took over existing pond, fighting algae for weeks now", "Personally, since I have not used it yet, I am still nervous about using the stuff, but it is a common practice. Just be careful with the stuff and do not use it if you are in any way not comfortable with what you're doing."

Yes, there are even "water gardeners" in that hyperlink that have used the PP, without fish kills, which many of them recommend bypassing all bio-filters, which would include bogs.

Sufficient aeration is quite easy to achieve, as shown in the hyperlink references; thus, not much aeration is actually required although it has to be quite present and, if this is tough for someone to judge, then do not use the stuff.


Reason to use PP is due to it being the cheapest and strongest product out there thus, of course, such products come with dangers.


Yes, there are more expensive, much less effective, much less risky oxidizers on the markets, which are my preference.

 

[crsublette]

Beware of what you read online. Seriously.

I would much rather share advice and references to folk from folk who have actual solid experience with using the stuff in a pond and even water gardening context, except there will always be the dense conrad/roark hating "know it alls" out there in this hobby.


I actually posted the information for folk whom are curious rather than as a recommendation, such as my words directly stated as such in post#20. I would rather share information that "could" be applicable to folk, unless I am aware otherwise of their aptitude and situation, rather than assuming folk are simpletons, incapable to judge for them self.


Beware of taking advice from fellas who don't mind posting with a bad attitude whom have been "currently pondless" for quite a while now.

 

[Waterbug]

Lol, waterbug, rest assured whoever sent you that message has way too much time on their hands, and no idea what I meant.

Pretty sure that applies to everyone posting here...on both counts.

 

[Waterbug]

... the fear mongering is unwarranted since we are only taking about extremely low concentrations of PP even in water gardens where the organics level is quite high.

You are seriously mistaken. Seriously. As in leading people into danger. I find most posts pretty funny but this isn't.

The low concentration you're referring to is inside the pond, assuming the dose was right. You may not be aware but before it gets into the pond you have mix the solid into a slurry. That concentration, you know, the one 12" from your face and 1" from your hands, is a very high concentration. Splash a little of that in your eye and tell me what you see...pretty sure it's going to be nothing...forever.

And we're talking about a large amount. Mixing up a small batch to dip a few plants has much less chance of causing burns and blindness if you happen to trip or drop the slurry just because there's less of it. It could still do serious damage so to me proper safety equipment should still be used, but pond level doses are really serious.

The "beware of explosions while in storage" is a new fear mongering technique that I have not heard of for a while.

That makes perfect sense to me that you hadn't heard that one. Your posts reflect that lack of understanding. Try reading any, and I mean any, MSDS for potassium permanganate and you will be enlightened...if you choose to be enlightened.

Yes, in the correct hands, it is super easy stuff to use.

To say that makes me think you've never used it. How in the world could you possibly come to that conclusion???

As stated in post#22 in thread "Took over existing pond, fighting algae for weeks now", "Personally, since I have not used it yet, I am still nervous about using the stuff, but it is a common practice. Just be careful with the stuff and do not use it if you are in any way not comfortable with what you're doing."

That post is a year old and you're telling me you still have no experience with PP but feel you have the experience (0) to tell other people it's safe to use???? That is just mind blowing. And why the internet is such a dangerous place.

Yes, there are even "water gardeners" in that hyperlink that have used the PP, without fish kills, which many of them recommend bypassing all bio-filters, which would include bogs.

So a couple of people posted they used it and their fish didn't die so therefore it's safe for everyone??? I just don't have the words for how incredibly....aggggggggg

Sufficient aeration is quite easy to achieve, as shown in the hyperlink references; thus, not much aeration is actually required although it has to be quite present and, if this is tough for someone to judge, then do not use the stuff.

You don't see the problem there? First time user judging what's sufficient? How exactly do they judge having no experience? OK, that's actually good test. Anyone reading this, and pretty sure it's just the 2 of us, if you can't see the logic problem there then that's a very good indicator that you are not ready to use PP.

Reason to use PP is due to it being the cheapest and strongest product out there thus, of course, such products come with dangers.

Oh yeah, of course there are dangers with everything so don't worry about all those scary MSDSs? PP is cheap. Replacing fish is also cheap. Going blind, also cheap.

Yes, there are more expensive, much less effective, much less risky oxidizers on the markets, which are my preference.

Based on your experience? Why in the world would other oxidizers be less effective? Makes no sense. What, are you talking gram for gram type deal? What does that have to do with anything?

I've only talked about the danger aspect and haven't even gotten into the problems with using PP for algae control in something as big as a Water Garden. But I see no reason for that. I'm pretty sure virtually every person who reads this thread and thinks PP is a great idea and safe will have second thoughts once they have to fill out and send in the hazmat waiver to get some shipped to them. And I guess for people that go thru that and still think it's better to listen to someone on the internet who has zero experience with this stuff...well good luck.

I'm not saying people shouldn't use PP...I'm saying be careful where you read about using it.

 

[crsublette]

Correct, I have not heard of anyone on koiphen nor in the pond hobby have their PP supply explode. Yes, so, being quick to state that PP will blow up is fear mongering.


Correct, I have not used it and I am excellent at following instructions thus it would be incredibly easy for me, or anyone, who follows instructions to use it. This was the entire point of sharing the instruction PP koiphen thread in the aforementioned hyperlink !!!

Correct, I am using other folk's experience, whom are quite credible and respected in the hobby, to say it is safe to use when instructions are followed.


Correct, when instructions are not followed, such as "wearing proper protective gear", then the result will be, "Splash a little of that in your eye and tell me what you see...pretty sure it's going to be nothing...forever ... causing burns and blindness".

Correct, if you are so clumsy to easily trip when dealing with such materials, then do not use it !!

Correct, if first time users can not follow instructions nor observe other's experiences or has bad judgement in these regards to determine what is "sufficient", then they should not use PP.

Correct, gram for gram PP is a cheaper, more effective oxidizer, and even safe when instructions are properly followed.

Correct, extra precautions must be used, such as following Dr. Conrad's instructions in the aforementioned hyperlinks, when PP is applied to a water garden due to water garden's high organic presence, that is unless you're one of those hating "know it alls" that know better than an actual fellow with a doctorate in chemistry and working in one of the top laboratories in the country. If you want to know about Dr. Conrad, then here you go... Koi Organisation International : Dr. Roddy Conrad's profile.


Correct, if folk have second thoughts of using PP, then do NOT use it !!!


After all of that, I love Waterbug's conclusion.... I'm not saying people shouldn't use PP...I'm saying be careful where you read about using it. <<< The coyote completely agrees !!!


Correct, I have referenced and will only follow the recommendations and opinions of a certified chemist, rather than a "know it all", and I only pay attention to the testimonials of other pond hobbyists, whom actually have a pond or even an aquarium, that currently and actually use PP successfully rather than referencing my lack of experience with PP.


Correct, I do not have to experience Antarctica's weather to understand it is cold.


This will make for an excellent thread for a PP disclaimer and should be constantly referenced for beginners before using PP.

 

[dieselplower]

Pretty sure that applies to everyone posting here...on both counts.

Not really. You won't find me wasting time gossiping about other forum members in PMs.

 

[dieselplower]

Crsublette, you should not beat up on waterbug so bad. He will go back into hiding.
Waterbug, have you ever splashed pp into your eyes? If not, how do you know it would be bad?

 

[Waterbug]

I think it's against forum rules to feed trolls.

 

[dieselplower]

I'll take that as a no