You can get BDs with an air diffuser built in to the unit which is nice if you're going to have a serious fish load.
Hello, all! Oh, and I need info...
- Thread starter James5
- Start date
In addition to the wrong container...submerged static media is the worst bio filter available today. For many ponds it couldn't even be considered a bio filter. It was the best 15-20 years ago and that's why you see so many around the web and people like building them.
First of all, thanks for all the advice- been a huge help. Completely reshaping everything in mind and clarifying a lot of things.
So, is it then a bad idea to have a two-level kind of pond with a BD and TPRs? Should it all be the same depths or will the physics apply regardless?
And I'm not going to lie- as much as the sieves look incredible they are insanely out of my price range. Way around it in the mean until funds can be saved?
And to answer your question- I mean for my pond to be a koi pond and a koi pond only. I'm buying them from a local dealer who has 6-8 beautiful koi for $9.99. Not going to spend big bucks on large koi when they grow so fast anyway.
Thanks again!!
So, is it then a bad idea to have a two-level kind of pond with a BD and TPRs? Should it all be the same depths or will the physics apply regardless?
And I'm not going to lie- as much as the sieves look incredible they are insanely out of my price range. Way around it in the mean until funds can be saved?
And to answer your question- I mean for my pond to be a koi pond and a koi pond only. I'm buying them from a local dealer who has 6-8 beautiful koi for $9.99. Not going to spend big bucks on large koi when they grow so fast anyway.
Thanks again!!
Thanks for answering the Koi pond question. The type of pond you want is really what should drive design. Ponds can range from a small container with no pump to huge with tons of equipment, and everything in between. So the more you're sure what you want the better the chance you'll design and get it.
What were the problems with the previous pond you want fixed?
How many Koi do you want to have in the pond? Is that 6-8 what you plan to buy and as many as you think you'd want in the pond? Are these standard Koi or butterfly Koi?
Is it OK if the Koi when adult aren't too big or do you want them to be huge?
What were the problems with the previous pond you want fixed?
How many Koi do you want to have in the pond? Is that 6-8 what you plan to buy and as many as you think you'd want in the pond? Are these standard Koi or butterfly Koi?
Is it OK if the Koi when adult aren't too big or do you want them to be huge?
Problems with previous pond was that I used landscape timber to build a frame and then didn't secure it right so once the liner was over it and filled with water one side of it settled and made the whole thing uneven. The other issue was that I didn't use a pond liner but a 20x20 black end cap that was about .03mm thick and therefore sprung leaks constantly. I got the idea from a DIY blog where the writer decided to build her own pond without any experience and used this because it was only $20. You live you learn. Those were the two major issues I had. But I consider it a good "learning pond" becasue I learned alot about what not to do and decided to set out this summer to rebuild it bigger and better, which is one of the reasons I am here.
Here is what it looked like just after "completion": http://www.flickr.com/photos/79402568@N03/7275605470/in/photostream
The koi are standard. I have four in a 50 gallon tank in my home. 2 I just bought last week and the other two are a year old and about 9-10 inches. I'm not concerned with growing jumbo koi, but certainly want them to grow to a good size. Sort of though I would just occasionnaly add another one here and there until it seemed like the pond and filtration was still able to handle it. I'm obviously not going to just dump 20 6" koi in there and then await calamity.
Anyway, here is my new pond design that is incorporating the BD and TPRs.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/79402568@N03/7275487976/in/photostream
And here is what my site looks like as of today: http://www.flickr.com/photos/79402568@N03/7275605716/in/photostream
By the way, I really like the idea you have on your page about making your own rocks. Seriosuly thinking about giving that a try, especially since rocks in my area are very expensive.
Thanks again!
Here is what it looked like just after "completion": http://www.flickr.com/photos/79402568@N03/7275605470/in/photostream
The koi are standard. I have four in a 50 gallon tank in my home. 2 I just bought last week and the other two are a year old and about 9-10 inches. I'm not concerned with growing jumbo koi, but certainly want them to grow to a good size. Sort of though I would just occasionnaly add another one here and there until it seemed like the pond and filtration was still able to handle it. I'm obviously not going to just dump 20 6" koi in there and then await calamity.
Anyway, here is my new pond design that is incorporating the BD and TPRs.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/79402568@N03/7275487976/in/photostream
And here is what my site looks like as of today: http://www.flickr.com/photos/79402568@N03/7275605716/in/photostream
By the way, I really like the idea you have on your page about making your own rocks. Seriosuly thinking about giving that a try, especially since rocks in my area are very expensive.
Thanks again!
I understand on the number of Koi, thanks. Let's talk about their size...even more important than number. I understand when you say you're not concerned with growing Jumbos, you're not into that hobby. But you do say "good size". So here's the deal, most Koi in backyard ponds don't get very large, 12-16" and a smaller number of ponds get 18-25", something like that anyways. Do you have an idea where you want to be in that general range?
Another way to tell is...I assume you've seen good adult Koi in a high end pond? What impressed you? Color? Size?
I ask because I want to know why you want a Koi pond. It varies a lot. Landscape feature, pets, impress people. I don't have any particular view myself so I don't really care. If you wanted to raise them to eat I'd say fine and here's the kind of pond that could help.
Planning any plants in the pond?
It definitely can be a problem if you want to sell the property. Any good home inspector is going to ding it and an agent is going to tell the buyer to ask for a lot of money off the price. Waiting around for a dumb buyer isn't as easy as it used to be.
There's also code about having a body of water close to electric.
Your city building department can tell you the set backup requirements, or post the info on a web site. They'll normally answer questions without knowing who you are, not like they'll hunt you down if you call them. In general you need to be as far away from the structure as the depth of the pond. And when it comes to installing the liner and maintenance later that skinny ledge is not going to be fun.
There's also an issue with rain run off from the roof. Gutters overflow sometimes. Not a huge deal but I don't want you to be surprised if it does become a problem later.
There can be a problem with algae growing on the side of the building and mold inside depending which direction the wall is facing. Waterfalls splash a lot further than expected and yours looks close to the building. I saw a long exposure picture of a pond waterfall and it was strangely different from a normal picture. You could see how far water splashed.
Collar
You haven't mentioned it yet but most ponds imo should have a concrete collar. The edge can erode under the liner, round off, causing whatever is on the edge to pitch in and even fall into the pond. I saw one really bad case where we had to start over.
A collar can be poured concrete with forms. 12-16" wide at the top and unfortunately in your area maybe 3' deep. I'm guessing that's not in the budget so plan B.
You can use a single course of bond beam concrete block. These are just like a regular block but with a an opening in the top to put rebar. No need to mortar the joints, just dry stack. Try to get it level and plumb. Two courses would be much better as you stagger the joints. The deeper the collar the less freeze heaving problems you'll have. How big a problem freeze heave is depends on lots of things.
Waterfall foundation
Depending on how you build the waterfall you'll need a foundation of some kind. No matter what when you build the concrete collar I'd have enough courses to make it below frost line on the part where the falls will be.
If you're going to use a lot of rocks you'd want a foundation under the entire falls to keep it from settling and leaking later. An experience you can relate to. Can just be a hole deep enough and filled with rock, gravel, broken concrete, whatever you have that drains well. Tamp it down well as you go. That's a pretty good foundation.
A soil berm type falls doesn't need a foundation because it's going to heave anyways. You might have to redo the falls every few years but if you know that in advance you can build to make rebuilding later easier. In general you want to stay away from placing heavy (100+ lbs) roundish rocks on soil unless you're OK with them moving.
You can reduce the size of the foundation by just building it under the water course, kind of free standing. Then you can back fill with soil. The soil will settle, erode, and heave but the water course will stay solid. You'd just have to add more back fill as it sank away from the water course.
Another way to tell is...I assume you've seen good adult Koi in a high end pond? What impressed you? Color? Size?
I ask because I want to know why you want a Koi pond. It varies a lot. Landscape feature, pets, impress people. I don't have any particular view myself so I don't really care. If you wanted to raise them to eat I'd say fine and here's the kind of pond that could help.
Planning any plants in the pond?
For a minute I thought this was a pond I was just looking at online but from England I think. Same problems. It's weird looking at old pond build threads, you see the beginning and say "oh that's going to fail" and on the next page, 6 months later the failure pictures. But trying is the best way to learn. My failures sure have been epic.
TPRs and BD placements are excellent. No problems with pond shape.
Issues. I've seen ponds dug against the side of buildings many times. If the garage is detached from the house maybe you don't care, but, it's against building code to dig 3' deep that close to a structure. I know people think the government is out to ruin their lives but they're actually trying to save you from yourself. It can compromise the building's foundation, which depending on age, could be a serious problem. The building can settle a lot, and even push the pond wall into the pond. The chances of these problems actually happening are low, but I can't predict the future and if moving the pond 2' further away reduces my risk of rebuilding a garage it seems like a smart move.
It definitely can be a problem if you want to sell the property. Any good home inspector is going to ding it and an agent is going to tell the buyer to ask for a lot of money off the price. Waiting around for a dumb buyer isn't as easy as it used to be.
There's also code about having a body of water close to electric.
Your city building department can tell you the set backup requirements, or post the info on a web site. They'll normally answer questions without knowing who you are, not like they'll hunt you down if you call them. In general you need to be as far away from the structure as the depth of the pond. And when it comes to installing the liner and maintenance later that skinny ledge is not going to be fun.
There's also an issue with rain run off from the roof. Gutters overflow sometimes. Not a huge deal but I don't want you to be surprised if it does become a problem later.
There can be a problem with algae growing on the side of the building and mold inside depending which direction the wall is facing. Waterfalls splash a lot further than expected and yours looks close to the building. I saw a long exposure picture of a pond waterfall and it was strangely different from a normal picture. You could see how far water splashed.
Collar
You haven't mentioned it yet but most ponds imo should have a concrete collar. The edge can erode under the liner, round off, causing whatever is on the edge to pitch in and even fall into the pond. I saw one really bad case where we had to start over.
A collar can be poured concrete with forms. 12-16" wide at the top and unfortunately in your area maybe 3' deep. I'm guessing that's not in the budget so plan B.
You can use a single course of bond beam concrete block. These are just like a regular block but with a an opening in the top to put rebar. No need to mortar the joints, just dry stack. Try to get it level and plumb. Two courses would be much better as you stagger the joints. The deeper the collar the less freeze heaving problems you'll have. How big a problem freeze heave is depends on lots of things.
Waterfall foundation
Depending on how you build the waterfall you'll need a foundation of some kind. No matter what when you build the concrete collar I'd have enough courses to make it below frost line on the part where the falls will be.
If you're going to use a lot of rocks you'd want a foundation under the entire falls to keep it from settling and leaking later. An experience you can relate to. Can just be a hole deep enough and filled with rock, gravel, broken concrete, whatever you have that drains well. Tamp it down well as you go. That's a pretty good foundation.
A soil berm type falls doesn't need a foundation because it's going to heave anyways. You might have to redo the falls every few years but if you know that in advance you can build to make rebuilding later easier. In general you want to stay away from placing heavy (100+ lbs) roundish rocks on soil unless you're OK with them moving.
You can reduce the size of the foundation by just building it under the water course, kind of free standing. Then you can back fill with soil. The soil will settle, erode, and heave but the water course will stay solid. You'd just have to add more back fill as it sank away from the water course.
Collar: Hadn't thought of that- thanks for bringing it up. Would it work just as well to use cinder block and mortar in, maybe two rows high, completely around the site?
Waterfall foundation: Excellent point and I have actually though of that, Last year when I did the inital pond I took a big rubbermaid container and filled it with concrete to be the base for the waterfall. Since my new one is going to a bit taller I planned on stacking and mortaring in some cinder block on top of that and then surrounding with dirt and whatnot.
Koi: I want the koi as pets and as a landscape feature. I'm actually fairly proficient in koi knowledge. I've read several books on them and for years have bought them little and had them in aquariums until they were too large, which I then gave them away to people with ponds. This is why I'm trying my best to get the best way possible to handle their waste in my pond. When you end up with four or five koi that are between 9 and 11 inches big in a 50 gallon tank you really have to be on top of the water filtration. For my koi I run two filters rated for 50g tanks because, as you well know, koi are pooping machines.
And you bring up great points about the garage and building codes. Certainly going to have to look into that.
In two weeks I have a five day weekend off from work and planned on using that time to put in the underlayer, liner and rocks. I orginally just came here for a few answers to questions and what have you. But now I've realized that I'm going to have to do much more and the porject timeline is going to be moved back. Fine by me because I would rather do it right than cut corners to get it done and have problems later.
Also I decided to go with mortaring in a rocky bottom such as you have on your page and also making my own rocks. Be a fun activity for the son to help me with.
One last thing, is a two-tier plan for the pond a bad idea? Should it all be the same level?
Oh, and I do plan on having plants but I plan on rocking off a shallow shelf for those because of the koi vs plants issue.
Waterfall foundation: Excellent point and I have actually though of that, Last year when I did the inital pond I took a big rubbermaid container and filled it with concrete to be the base for the waterfall. Since my new one is going to a bit taller I planned on stacking and mortaring in some cinder block on top of that and then surrounding with dirt and whatnot.
Koi: I want the koi as pets and as a landscape feature. I'm actually fairly proficient in koi knowledge. I've read several books on them and for years have bought them little and had them in aquariums until they were too large, which I then gave them away to people with ponds. This is why I'm trying my best to get the best way possible to handle their waste in my pond. When you end up with four or five koi that are between 9 and 11 inches big in a 50 gallon tank you really have to be on top of the water filtration. For my koi I run two filters rated for 50g tanks because, as you well know, koi are pooping machines.
And you bring up great points about the garage and building codes. Certainly going to have to look into that.
In two weeks I have a five day weekend off from work and planned on using that time to put in the underlayer, liner and rocks. I orginally just came here for a few answers to questions and what have you. But now I've realized that I'm going to have to do much more and the porject timeline is going to be moved back. Fine by me because I would rather do it right than cut corners to get it done and have problems later.
Also I decided to go with mortaring in a rocky bottom such as you have on your page and also making my own rocks. Be a fun activity for the son to help me with.
One last thing, is a two-tier plan for the pond a bad idea? Should it all be the same level?
Oh, and I do plan on having plants but I plan on rocking off a shallow shelf for those because of the koi vs plants issue.
Cinder block is better than nothing. Rebar just holds it together. Just mortaring the block doesn't add a lot.
Another thing on the collar is it makes getting the pond top level easier. Do you know about the problem with liners floating? If the waterline is above the surrounding ground you can greatly reduce the risk.
Given your goal for fish you can scale back a lot of things that a high fish load Koi Pond would need.
With your climate, unless you're going to over winter the fish inside, I'd think about making a 4' spot in the pond.
I missed the two-tier plan...really it just comes down to the pond you want, what the tiers would be for. Bad idea in a high fish load Koi Pond because it can be harder to sweep debris to the BD.
The plant is a good imo. In such a way that you could isolate the plants from the pond water for medical treatments.
Another thing on the collar is it makes getting the pond top level easier. Do you know about the problem with liners floating? If the waterline is above the surrounding ground you can greatly reduce the risk.
Given your goal for fish you can scale back a lot of things that a high fish load Koi Pond would need.
With your climate, unless you're going to over winter the fish inside, I'd think about making a 4' spot in the pond.
I missed the two-tier plan...really it just comes down to the pond you want, what the tiers would be for. Bad idea in a high fish load Koi Pond because it can be harder to sweep debris to the BD.
The plant is a good imo. In such a way that you could isolate the plants from the pond water for medical treatments.
Never heard of liners floating before. How does that happen?
And is mortar clay just premixed mortar or is it dry?
And is mortar clay just premixed mortar or is it dry?
A small amount of water gets behind the liner, clay soil, which has been compacted by the liner and pond water pressure, doesn't allow the water to drain away fast enough. If the pond water level is below ground level the water behind the liner has more pressure than the water inside the pond and pushes up the liner. That allows more water under the liner. At some point the water level inside the pond rises until it overflows.
Results in one of 2 symptoms. One, you see the bottom of the liner bubbled up which can stay that way for a long time and can allow gases to be trapped and the bubble can grow so the liner is above the surface.
Another symptom is you come out to the pond and everything looks normal but the water level in the pond is way down and you think you have a leak. You spend the next few months tearing the pond apart looking for the cause. And after putting the pond back together the "leak" happens again, normally after a rain. The cause is during the night the liner floats pushing water out of the pond. After the rain stops the water drains through the soil by morning allowing the liner to go back into a normal position.
Mortar clay is a separate product, comes in 50 lb bags generally for about $10 or so. Some premixed mortars do contain some clay. I would only use the clay for making the kinds of rocks I have on my web site, flat flag stone types. For round granite type rocks the guy in this video has a better technique imo at least for the painting and texture.
He uses a lot more material than is needed imo. I sure don't think he needs the fiberglass fibers.
For larger rocks I prefer to use a wire mesh, add a thin coat of mortar and let that cure. Then you have a rigid structure and can apply a final coat and then paint. So you end up with maybe a 1" thick rock. In the garden you fill it with soil and can even have plants growing out of it. For rocks in the pond I use a plastic or fiberglass mesh. But it all comes down to the kinds of rocks you want and your style.
The guy in the video also has some videos on making ponds...not good. They look good but don't hold water and he says that at one point. Problem is he didn't use a liner under the concrete. Not smart.
Results in one of 2 symptoms. One, you see the bottom of the liner bubbled up which can stay that way for a long time and can allow gases to be trapped and the bubble can grow so the liner is above the surface.
Another symptom is you come out to the pond and everything looks normal but the water level in the pond is way down and you think you have a leak. You spend the next few months tearing the pond apart looking for the cause. And after putting the pond back together the "leak" happens again, normally after a rain. The cause is during the night the liner floats pushing water out of the pond. After the rain stops the water drains through the soil by morning allowing the liner to go back into a normal position.
Mortar clay is a separate product, comes in 50 lb bags generally for about $10 or so. Some premixed mortars do contain some clay. I would only use the clay for making the kinds of rocks I have on my web site, flat flag stone types. For round granite type rocks the guy in this video has a better technique imo at least for the painting and texture.
For larger rocks I prefer to use a wire mesh, add a thin coat of mortar and let that cure. Then you have a rigid structure and can apply a final coat and then paint. So you end up with maybe a 1" thick rock. In the garden you fill it with soil and can even have plants growing out of it. For rocks in the pond I use a plastic or fiberglass mesh. But it all comes down to the kinds of rocks you want and your style.
The guy in the video also has some videos on making ponds...not good. They look good but don't hold water and he says that at one point. Problem is he didn't use a liner under the concrete. Not smart.
I'm far from an expert James, but I'm from Illinois also and I too worried about frost heave effects and settleing on a plain dirt collar or even stacked landscape timbers or stone--ditto for the heavy weight of my granite slabbed waterfall. I ended up following the raised board frameing technique I had seen on the same website as the original SKIPPY filter is on. I raised the sides of my pond with treated 2x6 boards on edge that have treated 2x4s sunk into the ground 3 foot to hold the shape and the level. then you bring the liner up and over the 2x6 and screw a 2x4 along the outside edge to sandwich the liner between the 2 and you end up with a liner up off the ground 8 inches---- (2x6 is suspended 2 inches above groung level on those 2x4 posts so if the ground frost heaves it wont contact the bottom of the 2x6 board and push it up) that is level and shouldnt frost heave and it keeps yard waste or chemicals from getting into your pond. Kinda of the cheaper, easier way of doing it--I like Waterbugs concrete collar idea but like he said here in Illinois you would need a 3 foot deep concrete footer (below the frostline here--might be deeper in northern illinois) to hold the collar and thats not cheap or easy--and I have 2 kids in college so if cheap works I use it. On my waterfall I used 3 massive granite slabs (not because I really wanted to, LOL but when you want granite around here you either pay a lot or you take what you can find on craigslist.) 300 lbs + a piece so like Waterbug said there was no way I was gonna trust 900 to 1000 lbs to just rest on dirt--I built a heavy duty treated frame to hold it because the last thing I would want to do is wake up and find the dirt gave way and the whole shebang had slid into the pond. I have no expierence with bottom drains but I tried to do a lot of research before I built my pond and I decided for a virtual novice like I was last year I was gonna stay away from a bottom drain--from what I read then and now if you get it right its great but if you get it wrong it could be a nightmare--Waterbug and other expierenced individuals would know a lot more than me on this subject. I chose to go with a large waterfall(with a skippy filter behind it) on one end of my 14' by 16' pond and a skimmer on the opposite end with a 3600 gph pump installed in it. The waterfall creates a current and the pump in the skimmer creates a draw which work together to bring a lot of floating stuff into it before it has a chance to sink. DISCLAIMER--lol --I live in a heavily wooded area with a timber directly behind my waterfall mountain and a skimmer can't possibly keep up with the amount of leaves that fall and are windblown into the pond during the fall/winter season. Also in Illinois you cant run your pump/waterfall in the winter so this year(after skimming leaves out with a long pool net by the wheel barrow loads) I have bought a removable net that stretches acrossed the pond during leaf falling season. I built the pond with sloping sides(one side does have steps cut into it to get in and out when I have to) and a big bowl shape in the bottom (depth of pond is 5 1/2' deep) so that the majority of the leaves and other crap can settle there and is easy to manually remove with a net. I have found that having a pond setup like mine can be pretty good, I have very little problems except for fighting string algae and I suspect that as I slowly get rid of the decomposing leaf residue it will get better. There is manual labor involved occasionally but its been my expierence that to have anything stay nice then manual labor is always involved. You can see how I did my wood collar and waterfall frame in my early posts in the pond photography forum under " Pond in Southern Illinois" good luck, Tim
Interesting suggestion and far less work then what I had been contemplating the last few days. Couple of quick questions about that. A) How far apart are your vertical boards spaced and are they cemented in? B) Treat them with anything special? C) Do you have anything, rocks or otherwise, along the sides of your pond or just liner?
Everyone has given me so many great ideas, all of which have completely revolutionized my pond plans for the better. Thanx to all!
Everyone has given me so many great ideas, all of which have completely revolutionized my pond plans for the better. Thanx to all!
Oh and another questions for ya'll: is it a big issue to attach smaller liner together to make one big one or does this cause a great amount of issues?
Oh and Waterbug, another question about rock making. After I've formed them do I just lay them out and let them dry? Will leaving them to cure in the sun cause cracks?
I wouldn't put them in direct sun, but I don't keep them wet. They do crack sometimes, thin areas, too much water in the mix, too wide an area. Something you learn by experience to avoid. Cracks will appear pretty fast giving you time to sculpt the stress crack into a rock crack.
Splicing liner together has the issues you might expect, cost in $$ and time. Make a mistake and you have a big problem. For EPDM it's pretty rare to splice.
Splicing liner together has the issues you might expect, cost in $$ and time. Make a mistake and you have a big problem. For EPDM it's pretty rare to splice.