High pH level!

[mellis18]

Wow...didn't mean to start an "across the pond" skirmish!! I have been dealing with ponds and fish for quite some time and I do know a little about it...but this is the first time I'll be working with koi. With koi being expensive I want to make sure everything is right before I introduce them.

 

[Dave 54]

Mellis I take it you want to be a serious koi keeper, koi are diiffernt you have to be on your toes with them.
We do constant maintenance, waterchanges, and tests just to keep things just right the filtration has to be good what filtration do you plan for them considering you only get 10" of rain per year.
Evaporation would be your next problem ev en we get it in our summer months we use a shade to slow this down.
They tend to wreck Aquatic plants so if yours is a formal pond you would be better off without them As a koi keeper you will be a novice no offence intended it can be a very steep learning curve that takes no prisomers,
Feeding koi you are putting food in four or more times a day each and every day, that in turn produces alott of fish detritus coming out the other end they also pass alott of ammonia via their gills.
Many of us acctually watch the weather why because it can effect your readings of the water perameters at a given time(is it going to be sunny whats the water temperature at that time, should I test in the morning, miday or at the end of the day.
Do you enough airstones in etc, in our own setup we run two airtec 40e airpumps, we have 3 32" vortex sytle filters. One is employed as a vortex, the next two with a portculis of jap matting to allow flow through which is important, one has zeolite to take care of ammonia the other Lithaqua to take care of the PH, one has sponges, the other Quilt batting as you guys call it. Each has three airstones we then hit the barrel filter which is full of k1, bio balls and aqua one bio balls filter medium each a minature factory producing helpful bacteria for the pond, the barrel filter has 6 airstones to keep everything churning knocking off bateria then producing new.
We then hit the Oase 3500 inline pump which then pushes the water via a 2" pipe up to our U/V-C an aqua pond 36watt one which returns the water back to the pond.
The pond itself has a 4" bottom drain which takes the water back to the filters the second airpump is employed soley for the bottom drain cover which has a spindrifter bubbler supplying air to the pond.
You need to know the flow rates of your pipe work how it is affected over time. Ammonia, nitrite,nitrate KH GH DOC are all important we test weekly,even during our winter.
Believe it or not you even need an outlet for your koi when they grow we normally sell ours at the 22" mark .
Koi theselves are fast growers, if they breed in the pond itself it can and does play havoc.
Your ammonia levels will hit the roof and the eggs around 50,000 per koi can bung up filters, better to have them breed in our QT facility, a huge tank with its own filtration bottom drain U/V-C.
All in all though they are beautiful fish can be hand tamed and will eat from your hand, they are great at de stressing you (unless you have a problem) and there is nothing better than sitting by the pond contemplating Life the Universe and everything, we are nedically retired and spend many a sunny afternoon by the pond with a little bit of rock music playing in the back ground..
They are long lived (up to 80 years) our two oldest are both 27 this year Browntop and Tiny both doitsu Browntop large scaled, tiny Leather.
There are twelve types of koi with a thirteenth catch all but I wont go into that as it can get confusing.
Make sure you think things through, plan what you want to do and get a filter that has some clout. learn all you can, there are some great books out there both on koi kealth and koi Appreciation.
We wish you the best of luck and welcome to koi keeping..
rgrds
Dave
I almost forgot it is advisable to give your filters a good clean twice a year once in the spring the other just before winter.

 

[Dave 54]

Are you going to be using a bead filter Mellis ?
If so sorry cant help you on that ours is the equivulent of a four chambered filter you'll have to talk to someone who uses them for information on them, Charles is probably the person you'll need to talk to on that
But the rest still stands I hope weve been of some help with this.
Charles your a great bloke and I know you mean well as do we all but please remember we both wish to help you in your way me in mine its a formula I've been working with for years now I find it hard to change my way of explaining things.
Novice koi keepers here in the southwest respond well to it and have done for years, many of them going on to do well in the hobby .
In the end its all about TLC Tender Loving Care which even moved one young man to go on and have a successful carrier in Ichtheology who has his own consulancy company and has co authored two books, lectures and is the chap who gave me a helpful hand just when my health failed big time and rekindled our love of the hobby just when things were starting to come apart.



rgrds


Dave

 

[Waterbug]

pH is simply the result of the KH and its salt.

I'm also not really sure why people focus on pH rather than KH. I assume it's because most people have heard/read the term pH and so they figure they understand pH. Maybe for a few it's confusion over alkaline vs alkalinity which may be the case here.

Salt and KH are not related. Something like baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) does have a salt component but it is the calcium carbonate, or calcium bicarbonate, component that's measured by KH and is responsible for pH buffering. Salt, sodium chloride (NaCl) is just what remains when baking soda reacts with acid. The only role salt plays is it's useful in producing a cheaper product, baking soda.

Pure calcium carbonate can be used as a buffer, it's just more expensive. Water movement can affect KH too by lowering CO2. So it can be a little confusing. But then so can pH.

I think it would be way less confusing, and our hobby would be way better served, if we didn't use the term KH at all, or considered any other buffering agent other than baking soda. Then we could say "test baking soda level" instead of KH. And we'd say "raise the baking soda level to 200 ppm". At least it would be simpler for people who didn't enjoy all the details. But I don't see that happening.

 

[Dave 54]

I'm also not really sure why people focus on pH rather than KH. I assume it's because most people have heard/read the term pH and so they figure they understand pH. Maybe for a few it's confusion over alkaline vs alkalinity which may be the case here.

Salt and KH are not related. Something like baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) does have a salt component but it is the calcium carbonate, or calcium bicarbonate, component that's measured by KH and is responsible for pH buffering. Salt, sodium chloride (NaCl) is just what remains when baking soda reacts with acid. The only role salt plays is it's useful in producing a cheaper product, baking soda.

Pure calcium carbonate can be used as a buffer, it's just more expensive. Water movement can affect KH too by lowering CO2. So it can be a little confusing. But then so can pH.

I think it would be way less confusing, and our hobby would be way better served, if we didn't use the term KH at all, or considered any other buffering agent other than baking soda. Then we could say "test baking soda level" instead of KH. And we'd say "raise the baking soda level to 200 ppm". At least it would be simpler for people who didn't enjoy all the details. But I don't see that happening.

I have to agree with you there waterbug I even know one person who doesnt believe in testing for Nitrates she states in converstion if the other three are alright then you shouldn't have a problem with it then there are those who totally ignore the DOC test kit and those who dont test for TDS. It makes me shudder sometimes but they all seem to have healthy koi.
Personally I think that one day they are storing up trouble.
We had one member thankfully now in prison for smuggling crack from Liverpool to Plymouth (No sympathy for him in our club) thankfully his membership lapsed prior to his arrest, who because he wouldnt be told anything never tested for anything.
Stating that by watching his father before he sadly passed he could tell when everything was alright just by looking at the pond.
He had crash after crash blaming everything from Traffic polution to acid rain it was never his fault, he even took great delight betting we would loose our koi during our first winter outdoors and was most put out when we didn't
Our motto is be safe and test you'll be suprised what happens to water even from our taps
Every year in Plymouth we have large nitrate readings due to farmer ferilizing the land it runs off their land into streams and rivers that supply our reservours.
From the end of March through April that you have to test your water from the tap to see what levels they are at.

Dave

 

[crsublette]

3 main components to test is KH, Total Ammonia (or NH3 more specifically), and Nitrite. These parameters are the ones that cause problems for beginners. Once they become familiar with these, then they can look on to the others, but I bet ya a hobbyist can get away for a long time, with few if any problems, in their pond.

Water changes essentially dilutes the pond water to become more like the source water's chemistry. If the source water is not good, then water changes from the source water could be causing more harm than good to the pond.

I think the avid hobbyists can become a bit overly obsessive about testing too much. It is like a skinny person trying to stay skinny by always counting calories with every single meal. It's really not that necessary to do to stay skinny nor to have a healthy pond.

 

[crsublette]

I'm also not really sure why people focus on pH rather than KH. I assume it's because most people have heard/read the term pH and so they figure they understand pH. Maybe for a few it's confusion over alkaline vs alkalinity which may be the case here.

I think focus on pH since EVERYONE and their dog says they should look at their pH and I bet they could not even explain why. It is one of the "follow the crowd" things in an essence that says, "hey, everyone is testing their pH so I should do it too."

I bet ya very few pond hobbyists, outside of the avid crowd, truely understand pH. All they get told is a number range like, such as "8.4 or 7.8 or whatever is best", so then the new hobbyist just "nods their heads in a agreement like a robot". Then, they wonder why they can't get a stable pH. Focusing on pH will never bring someone to a stable pH.

There needs to be a change in this regard... Folk really need to start substituting the ' p ' for a ' k ' followed by a " anything above 200ppm ". If you're KH is above 200ppm, then you'll never have problems with pH.

I don't know who started the entire deal about focusing on pH, but I believe it has cause more problems than realized.

 

[crsublette]

Salt and KH are not related. Something like baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) does have a salt component but it is the calcium carbonate, or calcium bicarbonate, component that's measured by KH and is responsible for pH buffering. Salt, sodium chloride (NaCl) is just what remains when baking soda reacts with acid. The only role salt plays is it's useful in producing a cheaper product, baking soda.

Pure calcium carbonate can be used as a buffer, it's just more expensive. Water movement can affect KH too by lowering CO2. So it can be a little confusing. But then so can pH.

Sorry WB, that is not correct. Sodium is not considered to be a salt in the context of pH chemistry. Sodium is considered to be an electrolyte element.

"salt" in the context of pH chemistry is defined as an ionic compound that result from the neutralization of an acid or base. In our context, "salt" is the carbonate or bicarbonate.

KH is the measure of the buffer system, not including calcium. In the context of our pond's water buffer system, the KH is a measurement of the carbonate (CO3-- or CO32- depending on how ya write it, and HCO3-).

I was actually being redundant when I stated "pH is the result of the KH and its salt". To be more precise, pH is the result of a weak acid (carbonic acid, H2CO2) and its salt (CO32- or HCO3-). For anyone curious, carbonic acid (H2CO2) is the result of carbon dioxide (CO2) being dissolved into water (H2O).

 

[crsublette]

Pure calcium carbonate can be used as a buffer, it's just more expensive.

True, calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is used as a buffer in the form of aragonite, oyster shells, coral, Lithaqua, etc, but CaCO3 is extremely slow to precipitate in the water and requires a lower pH to dissolve the CaCO3 more readily. In coral reef systems, there are CaCO3 reactors where the CaCO3 is mixed with injected carbon dioxide (CO2), the CO2 dramatically temporarily reduces the pH in the reactor chamber, to increase the dissolving of CaCO3 into the water.

In regards to the expense, it depends on the product you're using. Limestone (which is a mix of aragonite and other crystals) is incredibly cheap, but a tremendous amount of it have to be used since it is slow to dissolve.

Water movement can affect KH too by lowering CO2. So it can be a little confusing. But then so can pH.

That is not necessarily correct. CO2 has almost zero, if extremely little, effect on KH due to how carbonic acid is the denominator in the pH equation.

In the context of the buffer system in our pond water...

The salt is HC03- is the bicarbonate ion concentration, which is the ion measured by total alkalinity (sometimes referred to as KH in less precise terms)

The weak acid is H2C03, which is CO2 dissolved in water (H2O)

pH = pKa + log([HCO3-]/[H2CO3])

Also, CO2 and H2CO3 is always in equilibrium in the water due to electrochemical bonding. When the CO2 is dissolved in water, it creates carbonic acid (H2CO3). Since electrochemical bonding forces equilibrium, some of the H2CO3 seperates to forms an extra Hydrogen ion (H+) and bicarbonate (HCO3-). The extra H+ lowers the pH of the water. The extra HCO3- temparorily and slightly increases the KH.

When aeration is activated, then this forces some the extra H+ and HCO3- to become H2CO3 and then the aeration dissolves some of the H2CO3 into CO2 and H2O, with the air pushing the CO2 to the surface, which allows the CO2 to be forced into the atmosphere most of the time. If there is a heavy thin layer of CO2 in the atmosphere above the water, then this will prevent the CO2 from dissipating out of the water into the atmosphere, but this only would happen in an enclosed container due to the smallest amount of wind would displace this CO2 gas layer.

Rarely do folk have a problem with low calcium, but it does happen so this is why it is good to at least take a glance as to what your calcium levels are in the water by talking to the city water processing plant or dong a calcium test. A high GH does not indicate a high calcium level; GH is quite deceptive. Still, again, I stres that KH is still far more important.

 

[crsublette]

Now I got pretty dang technical in my two previous posts.

The begginer does NOT need to know all those details to be able to properly monitor pH or KH.

I think it would be way less confusing, and our hobby would be way better served, if we didn't use the term KH at all, or considered any other buffering agent other than baking soda. Then we could say "test baking soda level" instead of KH. And we'd say "raise the baking soda level to 200 ppm". At least it would be simpler for people who didn't enjoy all the details. But I don't see that happening.

People really do not need to know details anyways in the first place.

In the context of our ponds, I like the idea of calling it a "test baking soda level" instead of KH. It's not that simple when managing amazon planted aquariums or coral reef systems, but it'll work for what we're doing.

 

[crsublette]

To make one particular clarification on my part and to maybe help the reader...

The KH term is a slang, in the way we use it for "carbonate hardness". The correct term to be used is "total alkalinity". However, in our context, total alkalinity and KH is synonymous.

In actuality, KH (or "carbonate hardness") actually is just a "catch all" phrase to measure the concentration of all buffering elements, that is the presence of any weak acid and its salt. When measuring KH, in addition to carbonate, you are also actually measuring acetate, phosphate, borate, and various other buffering. However, in our context of ponding, the carbonate buffering system is the most prevalent. So, we end up using a KH test to determine the carbonate buffering.

As far as I am aware, there is no true test for carbonate (CO32-) or for bicarbonate (HCO3-) that we can apply.

So, we pretty much call it KH for shorthand.

Again... Folk don't need to know these details. Folk actually don't need to know much to merely operate, but I think the details are interesting in how it puts all the puzzle pieces together.

 

[capewind]

From an idiots point of view (MINE), if I suspect something is wrong, the first thing I do is test Ammonia and Nitrite. If both of those are fine (zero) I look at PH next. I know to you all, that makes little sense. A few of you, as well as my hubby, have tried to explain KH to me, too many times, and I just can not wrap my head around "buffering" ... I just figure some day I will have that "duh" moment and will be able to connect the dots. For now, I accept that KH has something to do with preventing the PH level from crashing or having major swings. So to me, and probably wrong, but if the PH tests where it normally does, I am not in "crash mode" ... of course for these reasons (and more) hubby is in charge of our water conditions. Just responding in the regard of why some of us dummying test the PH

 

[crsublette]

Capewind, I completely understand your positioning but one a quick question...

pH is a reactionary result. This means the problem has already happened and you're fixing it afterwards.

Why is it easier for you to understand pH and not KH ?? I'm not asking you about the chemistry, just talking about the test and result.

 

[capewind]

I honestly cant answer you in a way that makes any sense LOL. KH is just a number to me. You could tell me the ideal target number was x, but I have no basis to understand what is bad, in either direction, or HOW bad, what to do about it,, when or how ... So I leave that all to hubby LOL. If I am testing PH, it is because I, the constant worrywart is thinking something is off... PH has always been okay, but since it is a test I am familiar with, it falls into check the easiest and most obvious first. I need to be able to understand the WHY, and for some reason, I cant "get" the KH issue through my brain LOL. I *do* need to better understand the chemistry angle and cant get it LOL. Hubby sometimes teases me about being the dumbest smart person he knows. The hidden joke is IQ wise, I test out extremely high, but I get stumped by some of the simplest things.

 

[Dave 54]

Capewind, I completely understand your positioning but one a quick question...

pH is a reactionary result. This means the problem has already happened and you're fixing it afterwards.

Why is it easier for you to understand pH and not KH ?? I'm not asking you about the chemistry, just talking about the test and result.

Do you now understand Charles that the average fish keeper just doesnt really care about KH relying instead as I said on PH , KH GH and others arent tested for.
Unless your buying say the Tetra pond kit they dont see KH or GH, buying instead the Ammonia PH Nitrite and Nitrarte they keep things nice and simple some dont even understand the chemical terms,and what you are trying so well to explain is lost on them .
Weve had 27 years in this hobby now and have talked to many, many people thats how we worked out the keeping things simple formula, you tend to loose them otherwise

rgrds

Dave