How do I top off the pond with city water?

[Dave 54]

Now I am confused. It is not OK to expose Koi to chlorinated water, BUT it is OK to expose your filter bacteria. The links that you provided attest to the fact that the typical Chlorine levels found in tap water are sufficient in eliminating/reducing bacteria colonies. Washing the filters with tap water exposes these bacteria to the full Chlorine dilution rate whereas topping of one's pond with tap water or using it, untreated, for small water changes will result in a dilution rate that is well below any established level of toxicity for Chlorine.
I don't see where
. at all.

Chloramines, bring a much more stable compound, should be considered with a higher level of caution, but only because of the Ammonia involved.
Granted, there is a level of toxicity to any compound or element. The key is being able to determine what those levels may be.

.
This is what my good friend Pieter Odendal says about bacteria chlorine and filters , Pieter is one of South Africas top koi dealers

"Filter bacteria: Fragile things"?
The fables handed down through the years about filter bacteria include:
1) Certain chemicals would devastate the filter and pond of beneficial bacteria.
2) Washing out filter media with anything but pond water would wash off the beneficial bacteria.
3) High flow rates through the filter will wash off the beneficial bacteria
4) Major water changes would eliminate most of the disease pathogens in a pond.
Well it is not true.
"There are now numerous scientific studies that have proved beyond doubt that the Biofilm formation of bacteria that adheres to a solid surface is virtually indestructible.
It is the leading cause of many nosocomial infections in hospitals growing inside of catheters, and implanted devices. This protective environment can exceed the mass of the microbe cell by over 100X, which makes it a very protective environment from the outside world. The industry has found that Biofilms are so resistant to destruction that is some cases water treatment plants have had to sand-blast the microorganisms from surfaces".
He further explains himself
"The medications that are commonly used in our Koi Ponds to eradicate pathogens will not fully penetrate these Biofilms in the filter systems to kill all of the beneficial or bad bacteria.
The free-floating bacteria are killed more easily with chemicals.
These chemicals are usually stopped in the beginning when it becomes depleted to inefficient levels when coming into contact with the Biofilm. Although a certain amount of growing Biofilm layers may be penetrated, or sloughed off but the newly exposed layers begin to grow that previously laid dormant due to the starvation from nutrients. The Biofilm now starts to rebuild its lost layers. This means that the most common result is a small Biofilm and large free floating bacteria kill rate."
He then goes on to say
"The microbes in the Biofilm are almost bulletproof in this sphere of slime and can stay active for days and even weeks when fully dried out. Now one can understand why ponds recover so well after chemical treatment, and why diseases are never fully eradicated. It is due to Biofilm existence and its incredible protective properties".
I can undertand this fully as I use Tap water when cleaning my filter Jap matting with no problems whatsoever to the pond nor the koi sdo what is it that you dont seem to undertand Meyer .
Remember we have two very different approaches to pond keeping as such we are poles apart united by our hobby.
You say this :-
Chloramines, bring a much more stable compound, should be considered with a higher level of caution, but only because of the Ammonia involved.
Granted, there is a level of toxicity to any compound or element. The key is being able to determine what those levels may be
Ok so how on earth is the average pond keeper going to work these levels out Meyer because they dont know how , nor are there kits to measue thos levels
Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

.
This is what my good friend Pieter Odendal says about bacteria chlorine and filters , Pieter is one of South Africas top koi dealers

"Filter bacteria: Fragile things"?
The fables handed down through the years about filter bacteria include:
1) Certain chemicals would devastate the filter and pond of beneficial bacteria.
2) Washing out filter media with anything but pond water would wash off the beneficial bacteria.
3) High flow rates through the filter will wash off the beneficial bacteria
4) Major water changes would eliminate most of the disease pathogens in a pond.
Well it is not true.
"There are now numerous scientific studies that have proved beyond doubt that the Biofilm formation of bacteria that adheres to a solid surface is virtually indestructible.
It is the leading cause of many nosocomial infections in hospitals growing inside of catheters, and implanted devices. This protective environment can exceed the mass of the microbe cell by over 100X, which makes it a very protective environment from the outside world. The industry has found that Biofilms are so resistant to destruction that is some cases water treatment plants have had to sand-blast the microorganisms from surfaces".
He further explains himself
"The medications that are commonly used in our Koi Ponds to eradicate pathogens will not fully penetrate these Biofilms in the filter systems to kill all of the beneficial or bad bacteria.
The free-floating bacteria are killed more easily with chemicals.
These chemicals are usually stopped in the beginning when it becomes depleted to inefficient levels when coming into contact with the Biofilm. Although a certain amount of growing Biofilm layers may be penetrated, or sloughed off but the newly exposed layers begin to grow that previously laid dormant due to the starvation from nutrients. The Biofilm now starts to rebuild its lost layers. This means that the most common result is a small Biofilm and large free floating bacteria kill rate."
He then goes on to say
"The microbes in the Biofilm are almost bulletproof in this sphere of slime and can stay active for days and even weeks when fully dried out. Now one can understand why ponds recover so well after chemical treatment, and why diseases are never fully eradicated. It is due to Biofilm existence and its incredible protective properties".
I can undertand this fully as I use Tap water when cleaning my filter Jap matting with no problems whatsoever to the pond nor the koi sdo what is it that you dont seem to undertand Meyer .
Remember we have two very different approaches to pond keeping as such we are poles apart united by our hobby.
You say this :-
Chloramines, bring a much more stable compound, should be considered with a higher level of caution, but only because of the Ammonia involved.
Granted, there is a level of toxicity to any compound or element. The key is being able to determine what those levels may be
Ok so how on earth is the average pond keeper going to work these levels out Meyer because they dont know how , nor are there kits to measue thos levels
Dave

Well, before I begin commenting on the article by Mr. Odendal, I need to know the date it was published. I see contradictions to accepted scientific fact.
All a pondkeeper needs to know is at what level a substance becomes toxic, just as we know the toxicity levels of Ammonia, Nitrite, Copper etc. There are test kits for measuring Chlorine levels. I see no difference here than the testing of the usual parameters.
Like many other parameters, Chlorine becomes less toxic as temperature rise. The chlorine toxicity level for carp has been established at: 2.37 mg/L @ 10C to 1.75 mg/L @ 30C which is considerably higher than they would encounter from diluted source water.

 

[Dave 54]

The date this was published Published on Friday, 08 October 2010

Dave

 

[Mucky_Waters]

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@MuckyWaters drip irrigation is a good method . I even know a couple of koi keepers who still prefare to use it but I think its down to each to their own way of doing things as nowdays its little used

Dave

Well I don't see the downside Dave. All I'm hearing here is manually draining and adding water again.
Considering that it is recommended to change 10% of your pond water weekly, most people just aren't going to keep up to a schedule like that. So what will end up happening is they just won't change their water as regularly as they should.
Drip method is so simple, please tell me the down side???????

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Where do you have your emitter? I was figuring I would just plumb mine into the skimmer sump.

I have my emitter at the top of my waterfall. I can clearly see whether it's dripping or not, but because the emitter is black and under the shadow of the rocks and so close to the rushing water, it's really hard for anybody to notice it.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

The date this was published Published on Friday, 08 October 2010

Dave

Mr. Odendal states:

"These chemicals are usually stopped in the beginning when it becomes depleted to inefficient levels when coming into contact with the Biofilm. Although a certain amount of growing Biofilm layers may be penetrated, or sloughed off but the newly exposed layers begin to grow that previously laid dormant due to the starvation from nutrients."

Biofilm is a polymeric matrix that is colonized by communities of various bacteria. This matrix allows for the penetration of water, nutrients, Oxygen etc. to the lowermost area of the biofilm. There are no dormant bacteria in biofilm. All are in a constant state of growth.

The issue of damaging or retarding the growth of Nitrifying bacteria in a biofilter arises due to the fact that, at best, when Ammonia levels are high, such as when a pond is new, Nitrifying bacteria comprise only 20% of the available surface area anywhere in the pond, including the biofilter. Once a pond is cycled and Ammonia levels drop, this amount of coverage is reduced to 5%.. Subjecting this already low 5% coverage rate to any further reduction by chemical or physical means does not seem to be very prudent.

Interestingly, much of what is identified in a biofilter as sediment or detritus is actually bacterial floc formed by bacteria that have sloughed off from the biofilm. It is easily identified by its gelatinous make-up.

 

[Gandalf]

With a 40 ft waterfall and 3500 gallon pond, I get a lot of water loss from evaporation and splash on the rocks. Not unusual to top off the pond several times a week in high heat or high wind. Never had an issue with tap water, except for spawning time. The chlorine and/or chloramine trace amounts are too much for the fry. If I treat the water then, they tend to survive, but I've got plenty of fish, so I usually don't treat. Other than that there seems to be no other issues, but it is a large and highly balanced eco system that manages to be self sustaining with out a lot of extra treatment. In the end, no two systems are identical, so you have to know yours and manage it accordingly. Plus know your tap water quality.

 

[ChrisP]

I wonder if treating an aquarium is different than a pond though due to the smaller volume of water? When we used to change our aquarium water, we would just "age" the replacement water - put it in a container the night before and let it sit uncovered. The chlorine dissipates naturally. But that was for true water changes - removing and replacing a predetermined volume, as opposed to topping off an unknown amount in a pond. I think I'm going get one of those water meters so I can figure out exactly how much my "top offs" amount to!

I've also heard you can reduce chlorine by spraying the water over the pond and the contact with the air will eliminate much of the chlorine... anyone?

Chlorine will evaporate like that, but not chloramine; that's why they use it.

It doesn't matter how much your adding because you have to treat the whole volume of water in your pond. Example: my pond is 500 gallons and when I change water no matter how much I need to add enough dechlor to treat 500 gallons.

The reason for this is the achieve the proper level of concentration of the declorinating agent in the pond. Lower concentration = lower effectiveness.

Of course, every municipality will have different level of Cl... ours has really cut back since they went to UV.

One side note, for brewing beer all I use is an activated charcoal filter for removing any off flavors and aroma from Cl.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

[QUOTE="ChrisP, post: 276078, member: 2782"

The reason for this is the achieve the proper level of concentration of the declorinating agent in the pond. Lower concentration = lower effectiveness[/QUOTE]

@ChrisP Are you saying that you treat the total volume of water then and not just the new water being added? I was beginning to think I was the only person on this forum that does it that way. thanks for the explanation

 

[houseguitarshop]

Definatly need to treat tap water around me. When I first filled the pond, I waited a day, and then threw in a bag of bait minnows, they all died within two hours, I asume it was from the chemicals in the tap water. I pulled out the dead minnows.

the next day I bought de-chor, and tried again, this time the minnows were fine.

I bought a 40 gal plastic trash can for water changes. I fill it up. add the correct amount of chemicals and siphon it in.

my plan is to get a 50 gal rain barrel and set up a drip siphon. for now the plastic trash bin works.