HOw far is your underground electrical box located from pond

[Waterbug]

Yesterday I installed a hose bib next to a main electric panel and had to check local code. I was a little surprised there wasn't a minimum distance. I've seen in others states it had to be 36" away from outlets, but an outlet and electric panel are different things.

While checking that I ran into other related code. For example electric can't be within 5' of a swimming pool. I often use swimming pool code to decide what's safe for a pond. But the actual requirement varies by location. In CA a swimming pool and pond were considered the same thing code wise. I thought that was true for AZ too, but reading it closer a swimming pool is different from a pond...maybe.

36-1681. Pool enclosures; requirements; exceptions; enforcement
A. A swimming pool, or other contained body of water that contains water eighteen inches or more in depth at any point and that is wider than eight feet at any point and is intended for swimming, shall be protected by an enclosure surrounding the pool area, as provided in this section.

A pond isn't "intended for swimming", so I guess code won't apply. However, I'd assume I'd be in trouble if I built a 4' deep pond in my front yard without a fence and a kid drowned. It's not much of a defense to quote code.

There is also lots of wording in code about general hazards which an inspector could use to fail an outlet location. When in doubt it's best to call the local building department and ask even if you're not pulling a permit.

 

[markd]

And 12v (landscape light) rules are actually even more restrictive, as there is no GFCI protection available for low voltage lines!

 

[waynefrcan]

OK that makes no sense. If you cut a 12volt line no harm to humans or animals or fish. And if you cut the 115 vt from the transformer to the outlet the GFi kicks in.

 

[markd]

12vac across the body (say if you reach from a pool to touch a landscape light) can kill you.

 

[waynefrcan]

Maybe if you swimming at 90.

Really, the only way to die is if somehow the light fixture came in contact with a 120v line.

Can you give any case of a death from a 12volt landscape wire or fixture?

 

[markd]

Nope- just the basic research. Very small currents can kill you. What protects you is that it take a larger voltage to breakdown the resistance of your skin- your DRY skin. Resistance of WET skin can be low enough to cause you serious problems even at very low voltages. Stick your finger across a fresh 9v battery- pretty painless, right? Now try your tongue. Hmm, there is some current flowing there, isn't there? And 12 landscape fixtures aren't really 12v- it depends where on the line you are.

http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html

Note that code does not allow landscape fixtures within 10 feet of pools or spas. You can get closer (5 feet) with GFCI protected 120.
This article is a pretty good summary of the NEC-

http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=11971

The other thing to keep in mind is that the codes also try to cover faults and poor installations. So if your low voltage lighting transformer develops a short, you could get 120v on your landscape fixtures. The code also tries to make it easy on local inspectors, who may or may not be well educated in the ins and outs of all this stuff.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with all this stuff, just what I have found when I have gone looking. I have a hot tub and my pond. I'd like to have some lighting around them. Keeping strictly to the code, I don't have a lot of options- very frustrating! Personally, I think 12v DC and LEDs are about as safe as you can get, but by the book, tough stuff! And the real pool luminaires are stupid expensive....

 

[waynefrcan]

Interesting, I might have to check into this.

Our city codes treat a pond like a pool, 6 ft locking fence etc. But don't recall about lighting.

I opened the box of a fixture and warning has no closer then 10 ft from pool, hot tub or fountain. I;m sure then they would hold this same warning for a pond.

My last system was a 24 v and It had submersible lights no problems with fish or me, I'm still here typing.

I think many ponds have these lights near the edge as I will be doing?

Still not convinced about any risk in a pond setting for 12volts.

 

[Waterbug]

I'm pretty sure most DIYers don't follow code. I had a neighbor who's house was almost entirely wired with extension cords...as the wires, instead of Romex.. Ends of the cords were cut, run along base boards, fished thru the walls, and connected to boxes like Romex would be. A mix of orange 12 and 10 ga cords and a bunch of lamp type cords. His house didn't burn down and no one has been killed...yet. So according to him it was perfectly safe and code is just a bunch of nonsense. I didn't think it was that bright. When he sold the house $20K was knocked off the price when the home inspection found the wires. Not bright and kind of an expensive choice. What did he actually save?

I follow code as best I can because I don't have time to research every reason why code is the way it is. I know most code is the result of many deaths and property loss over the years until code was updated to the bare minimum, cheapest choice, they could find. So to me code is just the bare minimum.

I often think I'd better off finding and using stricter code. For example, Chicago requires all electrical to be in conduit, no NM Romex. When I first heard it I thought that was strange, But commercial has always required conduit, so really, why not for homes? Then a neighbor (another neighbor) had a fire in the wall of their kitchen. Turned out to be an staple that had gone into the Romex and had been like that for about 30 years before catching fire. Luckily they were home, smelled the smoke and busted through the drywall to put the fire out before there was too much damage. Conduit would have prevented that.

 

[waynefrcan]

That's the thing, get away cheap now but you pay later. Just hope it's cash you pay and not a life!

I always think about re-sale. I stopped the neighbor from putting a fence 18" onto my side of the property line. Here all house sales require a survey.

I think I'll just talk to the city about the electric code and be done with. Or I can buy a copy for $129 like 400 pages lol. That's Provincial and Fed code as well.

 

[Waterbug]

Code is complex, but the basics are a lot easier. I normally try to stay in the ballpark, but I assume I make lots of mistakes. I like talking to the building department, they talk ballpark. But I have to make sure I'm talking to the right person. Like if I ask a building department person a question like how close to the property line I can build I might not get a good answer since that's a zoning question and the building department person might just be guessing like most people do. Or if I'm talking to a clerk they may know nothing about code but are more than happy to give an "expert" opinion.

Pretty impressive requiring a survey for sale.

 

[Andy41]

Hi,

I've used a GFI for *all* the outside electrics, regardless of how far they are from the pond. The distribution box itself is located about 3 feet from the pond, but inside the filter enclosure, which itself is waterproofed.

I used PVC water pipe (3mm thick walls) for running the cables from the house to the distribution box. This will resist even a garden fork going through it (I tried!).

Hope this helps.

cheers,

Andy.

 

[waynefrcan]

Code is complex, but the basics are a lot easier. I normally try to stay in the ballpark, but I assume I make lots of mistakes. I like talking to the building department, they talk ballpark. But I have to make sure I'm talking to the right person. Like if I ask a building department person a question like how close to the property line I can build I might not get a good answer since that's a zoning question and the building department person might just be guessing like most people do. Or if I'm talking to a clerk they may know nothing about code but are more than happy to give an "expert" opinion.

Pretty impressive requiring a survey for sale.

If you sell within 5 years of buying, the original report is good unless you add a fence, garage etc.