I miss Waterbug...

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by JohnHuff, Jun 18, 2013.

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  1. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    I really do not like to dog pile on Aquascape, but it is aggravating when folk suggest that "quantity indicates quality", which is quite a shallow assessment of a product.
     
    crsublette, Sep 15, 2013
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  2. JohnHuff

    dieselplower

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    I still have no idea what this Aquascapes stuff is. Don't care. I use a few buckets of rocks and a UV and my pond is clear to the bottom. I call it Dieselscapes. I am interested in this moving media filter or whatever it is called. Have more reading to do.
     
    dieselplower, Sep 15, 2013
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  3. JohnHuff

    JohnHuff Friends call me Dr. Sir John Huff

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    I'd never heard of Aquascapes until today. Interesting concept. As I went through their website my thoughts went from "why on Earth would anyone buy an Aquascape pond when all these components are available separately from other companies" to "why don't companies like Tetra put together packages like Aquascape, make deals with contractors/retailers and sell them as a bundle?" And why do coyotes call you Charles?
     
    JohnHuff, Sep 15, 2013
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  4. JohnHuff

    Waterbug

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    You have to pay to put advertisements in your posts signature (at least last time I checked), which is what I was referring to. That also seems to imply you're free to promote your products in your posts. People seem hesitant to talk about or recommend competing products. I just had a post where an advertiser suggested a drop in liner that he sells to someone and I didn't post "EPDM is cheaper and easier" because that would probably be stepping in it. Besides, if the original poster didn't already know to compare liners they probably wouldn't have understood my post any ways. Politics of each forum all seem a little different.
    I think we're on the same page. Hard to tell. I guess you're saying "free" (meaning open to all, not $$$) public forums will always have small minded people? True. I believe the purpose of forums is to give people a soap box that they don't have in real life because people don't listen to them in real life. Dudes in check out lines who want to explain to me all the troubles in the world...shut up and go find a forum.

    Lady Gaga's Bad Romance video on YouTube has 1,521,267 comments. Something odd about that. Do they think people read all those? At 30 seconds per read, reading non-stop for 8 hours a day it would take 4.3 years. And of course at the end of the 4.3 years there would be a few million more to read. Maybe it's a new ring in Dante's Inferno.

    I don't consider any online forum to be free (open)...by a long shot. Like you said about Aquascape's forum. I used to post in an anarchist forum which prided itself on being open, ya know, being anarchists and all. Nope. Super sensitive about a lot of stuff. Many discussion forums don't allow discussion of completing forums or limit that (including here, but not too bad). Most don't allow anything that would upset members too much because forums are all about numbers, not quality, which is also why bots are being used so much by forum owners. Posters and advertisers can't tell the difference so what the hay.
    Yes...that is curious isn't it. Having been in lots of pond forums for many years I can tell you that professionals do post, but not for long. I remember a Biologist post once to explain one point on algae...followed by a dozen posts like "Yeah, well I added barley straw and that killed my algae", "Yeah, well I added hydrogen peroxide and that killed my algae", "Yeah, well I have a filter made from Popsicle sticks...". The Biologist never returned. There's just very little room for any kind of thoughtful discussion.
    You've missed the wars. There have been lots of professionals pushed out of Koiphen and other Koi sites. Many Koi sites were originally created by people pushed out of other forums. Many just stayed out of forums completely.

    Koiphen is great for the narrow type of pond they support...just like every forum has their own narrow definition of what a pond is.
    To me they're in the landscape business. Kind of even in their name.
    I've seen some people who say they're professionals but who I couldn't tell if there was any truth to their claim. I get skeptical when people boast more than demonstrate. People like Dr Roddy Conrad, who still posts once in a great while, but went thru blistering crap for months to demonstrate how Trickle Towers performed...advanced the hobby a lot. How he put up with it I'll never know.

    Doc Johnson fought the good fight for a long time on different forums, even tried his own forum which was pretty big at one time imo. Hard to believe that a practicing Vet, with a specialty in Koi, would be pushed out of forums. Free Vet advice isn't as important as having 100 members handing out crap advice. But that's the deal in forum after forum. Soap box for the masses. Whatever is said the most must be true.
    You said it brother man.
    It is my poster child.
    I can't remember ever running into that case. Now mind you this could be just the type of person who would call me to fill in a pond. They're not DIYers. They're in between Aquascape and DIY. Had the pond built by who knows who, went into forums when the pond turned to crap, and started getting crap info. It's possible if say they wanted to clear a green pond that they may have seen a few posts about UV, but those would be surrounded by "I tried UV and it didn't work" and a bunch of other "sure fire fixes". I assume it's hard (impossible) for them to pick out UV as the one answer that would do the job for them. So it could be dismissed. And many do say have a non working UV, but very few forums that even will mention UV sure don't ever give hardly any install and operation tips because no one knows any better. Beyond of course the standard "you have to change the bulb". Unless they go to a Koiphen type forum, but they seem to prefer the Water Garden forums because that's what they have. To know you have to go to Koiphen type sites for serious help with a UV you first have to know to use a UV and that it should work. In Water Garden forums it seems like when a UV doesn't work for someone it's assumed to be just one more crap fix and is tossed onto the pile.
    Definitely. But I think that's more likely a problem with the contractor. Not to say the contractor is bad. I'd guess a great pond builder would have a seriously hard time pushing Aquascape, focus is landscape not pond. There's always going to be unhappy people. I'm talking about a serious failure that caused like 50,60% of owners to be unhappy in the first 30-90 days. That's criminal type failure.
     
    Waterbug, Sep 15, 2013
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  5. JohnHuff

    Waterbug

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    Absolutely. Just another pond myth started by some business to sell stuff.

    I'm not even going to mention "barley".
     
    Waterbug, Sep 15, 2013
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  6. JohnHuff

    Waterbug

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    That is what makes Aquascape honest imo...graded on the business curve. They're up front about it. Basically if you're unhappy with the water clarity you need to drain, power wash and refill. By definition the water is always great.

    I don't know how many Aquascape pond don't have Goldfish or Koi, but I'd guess a fair number. The pondless option has really help fill that niche however. From what I can tell it doesn't seem to be unusual for a pond cleaner to kill a bunch of fish (Goldfish mostly) emptying the pond, and to even lose them all in the tank waiting, and then some during start up. The standard practice is to just replace the same number of fish. Most owners don't seem to mind, maybe don't even notice. The cleaner just move fish from pond to pond as they reproduce and die.

    I have read a few posts where an Aquascape owner did noticed, maybe here once, considered the fish to be pets, and was screaming bloody murder. Is that Aquascape's fault? In a Water Garden forum I assume most people would blame Aquascape. If you polled Aquascape owners I suspect they's say "they killed $5 worth of fish, replaced them, what's the big deal?". If asked would you pay $100 extra for better fish handling and pond start up I assume most would say "You mean for $5 worth of fish? Is this a trick question?".

    Water Garden people hate Aquascape for good reason. Aquascape doesn't build the kind of thing they want. Koi Pond people...you'll get an eye roll.

    Most pond issues imo always seem to come back to people lumping all pond types into one bin and comparing them. You can debate which you prefer, or which type works best for which goals. Aquascape is what it is. Don't see how what they do has much effect on Water Gardens or Koi Ponds, or any other type of pond. They all are containers filled with water and that's were the similarity ends.

    That's about all I have on Aquascape.
     
    Waterbug, Sep 15, 2013
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  7. JohnHuff

    Waterbug

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    I just read this. Yes, I believe that is standard practice. Did your friend care? Enough to pay say double the price?
     
    Waterbug, Sep 15, 2013
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  8. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    1) Yes...that is curious isn't it. Having been in lots of pond forums for many years I can tell you that professionals do post, but not for long. I remember a Biologist post once to explain one point on algae...followed by a dozen posts like "Yeah, well I added barley straw and that killed my algae", "Yeah, well I added hydrogen peroxide and that killed my algae", "Yeah, well I have a filter made from Popsicle sticks...". The Biologist never returned. There's just very little room for any kind of thoughtful discussion.

    And it is quite sad the "biologist" was persuaded to not return... It seems these professionals are fine lecturing to the public at conventions until the public has a chance to respond in a townhall type or online forum setting. Unfortunately, there are professionals that care too much about what is said by anyone, they internalize absolutely everything rather than compartmentalize it, and this persuades them to give weight to every stupid post written.


    2) People like Dr Roddy Conrad, who still posts once in a great while, but went thru blistering crap for months to demonstrate how Trickle Towers performed...advanced the hobby a lot. How he put up with it I'll never know.

    Thick skin, apparently knows how to compartmentalize, and understands the game.


    3) Doc Johnson fought the good fight for a long time on different forums, even tried his own forum which was pretty big at one time imo. Hard to believe that a practicing Vet, with a specialty in Koi, would be pushed out of forums. Free Vet advice isn't as important as having 100 members handing out crap advice. But that's the deal in forum after forum. Soap box for the masses. Whatever is said the most must be true.

    Yep, it was just a month ago or so that Koivet.com forum was cancelled. Now there's a note stating, "But times change. Most of these old forums have moved on to Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Koivet has no forum mainly because I cannot be around to make sure everyone plays nice. Enough said." Hmmm... Albeit for me to say, I believe there is quite a bit of spin here. The fact is there was hardly anyone posting on that forum anymore and he was having a tough time finding anyone to volunteer to be moderators that gave a damn.


    4) You said it brother man.

    Yeah, I am waiting for the day that there will be a goldfish/koi/watergarden forum, that involves a monetary premium for access to restrict the rift raft griefers who just want to give hell, but I doubt it will ever come since most folk in this hobby want easy and simple and most definitely cheap so I doubt they would pay a premium for such of a forum resource.


    5) I can't remember ever running into that case. Now mind you this could be just the type of person who would call me to fill in a pond. They're not DIYers. They're in between Aquascape and DIY. Had the pond built by who knows who, went into forums when the pond turned to crap, and started getting crap info. It's possible if say they wanted to clear a green pond that they may have seen a few posts about UV, but those would be surrounded by "I tried UV and it didn't work" and a bunch of other "sure fire fixes". I assume it's hard (impossible) for them to pick out UV as the one answer that would do the job for them. So it could be dismissed. And many do say have a non working UV, but very few forums that even will mention UV sure don't ever give hardly any install and operation tips because no one knows any better. Beyond of course the standard "you have to change the bulb". Unless they go to a Koiphen type forum, but they seem to prefer the Water Garden forums because that's what they have. To know you have to go to Koiphen type sites for serious help with a UV you first have to know to use a UV and that it should work. In Water Garden forums it seems like when a UV doesn't work for someone it's assumed to be just one more crap fix and is tossed onto the pile.

    Yep, folk have to be much more skeptical when reading anything on a forum or even anything not on a forum including what a pond store fella or contractor is telling them. I think too many are willing to give everything worth a try simply due to them wanting their problem fixed, done with, and gone instead of spending the time to do their research before taking the advice from someone since this means delaying the "instant fix". It is no different than buying something like a car or looking for home repair contractors or finding a roofer or even finding an electrician; yet, even with this stuff, folk will just about go out and hire just about anyone.
     
    crsublette, Sep 15, 2013
    #48
  9. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    1) Basically if you're unhappy with the water clarity you need to drain, power wash and refill. By definition the water is always great.

    That's pretty much most of it right there. :cheerful:
     
    crsublette, Sep 15, 2013
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  10. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    To a fella that is a $0.29 fish kind of guy that just buys another to replace the dead, and not looking to keep fish around for a while and hoping they survive a year, meh, I doubt he cares much at all regardless of how he talks to me about it. He just wanted something nice to look at, to impress customers and friends and give some pizazz to the place, and something to help sell his Aquascape pond products in the greenhouse.
     
    crsublette, Sep 15, 2013
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  11. JohnHuff

    dieselplower

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    Destroying the cycle of the pond. Sounds like a stupid way to go about things to me.
     
    dieselplower, Sep 15, 2013
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  12. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    1) I'd never heard of Aquascapes until today. Interesting concept. As I went through their website my thoughts went from "why on Earth would anyone buy an Aquascape pond when all these components are available separately from other companies" to "why don't companies like Tetra put together packages like Aquascape, make deals with contractors/retailers and sell them as a bundle?"

    Yep, I agree John. Ya nailed it. It would be interesting concept for others to pursue.


    2) And why do coyotes call you Charles?

    Named after a serenade I sing with the coyotes at night after I have drunk "a few" and taught them my name. So now, even the coyotes call me by my name. ;) :0000000057:
     
    crsublette, Sep 15, 2013
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  13. JohnHuff

    Waterbug

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    You can blame the biologist for not being able to handle morons better...but that's not really their job. They're not trained for it, aren't paid to have to do it. Whether or not they feel like posting in a forum is a reflection on the forum imo. But I know, in forums, it's popular to blame the biologist. Mob populism (redundant for effect).

    There would be little point for a biologist to discuss with a drunk in a bar whether germs are real or government propaganda. How does one even have such a discussion? And when that discussion was over the biologist gets to have the exact same discussion with the next drunk because they were too lazy to list to the first discussion. The biologist is going to figure out pretty fast that it's best to leave the patrons to the world they've created for themselves.

    They're happy trading their far out thoughts with other bar patrons. Best leave them to it. Besides, if they cared at all they could pick a book. Not like this stuff is some big secret.

    Ignorance is not a genetic trait. It's nurtured, practiced, and defended...defended at all costs.

    These dudes in forums sometimes demand people who know something to answer their questions. One person here demanded I limit my answer to 25 words or less. There aren't enough words in the world to explain anything to some people. It's pointless. I get a fair number of emails from people asking pond, software, building questions. Probably 95% never bother with even a "thank you" in the original question or follow ups. They're ones who will then argue about my answers. Dude, you don't know the first thing about ponds which is why you asked me if you could keep fish without water. Don't accept my answer is fine, but I don't have the time to listen to your delusions. Getting pretty good at weeding these out now, always the same MO. Seems like lots of people feel entitled.

    Don't know if you mean that as an insult or not but I take it as one. The hell he went through he went through for the hobby...he was not playing games. You'll have to forgive me, but kind of like saying a battered wife I personally know "can really take a punch", can be taken wrong. I've been through some of what Roddy went thru so I feel a kindred spirit.


    Diito on this seeming an insult.

    You seem to have this view that forums are some kind of bastion of higher learning, maybe you're trying to be polite, can't tell. I think they're on the same level as the local bar. Sure, you might run into someone who can carry on a good discussion once in a great while...but you're also going to get puked on a whole lot more. Forums and local bars have their place in the world...higher learning isn't one of them. Although I did meet my ex-wife in a local bar...so I did learn not to meet wives in local bars. Not saying it wouldn't work for others...just not me.

    You do realize that for you to have that Goldfish millions and millions are put to death in ways that would make most people puke? You can point fingers at others, but us buying these fish is the only reason so many are killed in the cheapest manner possible. Plenty of blood to go around.

    We already have fish at a monetary premium for access to restrict the rift raft. I don't think price would make much difference. My guess if she thought it was fashionable to carry a live $1,000 Goldfish around in her purse that Paris Hilton would. When paying $20K for an outfit to be worn once I don't think a $1,000 Goldfish would stop them. The high price would probably make wearing live Goldfish fashionable. Not too pick on Paris, but wealth is not the same as knowledge or certain morals.
    [​IMG]
     
    Waterbug, Sep 15, 2013
    #53
  14. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    1) You can blame the biologist for not being able to handle morons better...but that's not really their job. They're not trained for it, aren't paid to have to do it. Whether or not they feel like posting in a forum is a reflection on the forum imo. But I know, in forums, it's popular to blame the biologist. Mob populism (redundant for effect).

    Unless you're job involves PR or customer relation or to handle people, nobody's job is to handle morons. Anyways... Why must the morons be "handled" anyways? Sounds like a choice to me to want to "handle" them. It absolutely is a choice, in a forum, to want to reply to them in order to "handle" them.

    I rather enjoy the tango since, if handled right, the drunks most often make you look even better without the drunk even realizing it.


    2) There would be little point for a biologist to discuss with a drunk in a bar whether germs are real or government propaganda. How does one even have such a discussion? And when that discussion was over the biologist gets to have the exact same discussion with the next drunk because they were too lazy to list to the first discussion. The biologist is going to figure out pretty fast that it's best to leave the patrons to the world they've created for themselves.

    The predicate of your assumption is if there is a discussion to be had or a motivation to continue with the drunk.


    3) Don't know if you mean that as an insult or not but I take it as one. The hell he went through he went through for the hobby...he was not playing games. You'll have to forgive me, but kind of like saying a battered wife I personally know "can really take a punch", can be taken wrong. I've been through some of what Roddy went thru so I feel a kindred spirit.

    Assimilate it however you wish, but there is a definite reflection expressed from folk who have thick and thin skin. If you want to compare this difference to be the equivalent of telling a story of the battered wife as you eloquently mention, then this is your perogative and definitely not in my writing.


    4) Diito on this seeming an insult.

    You seem to have this view that forums are some kind of bastion of higher learning, maybe you're trying to be polite, can't tell. I think they're on the same level as the local bar. Sure, you might run into someone who can carry on a good discussion once in a great while...but you're also going to get puked on a whole lot more. Forums and local bars have their place in the world...higher learning isn't one of them. Although I did meet my ex-wife in a local bar...so I did learn not to meet wives in local bars. Not saying it wouldn't work for others...just not me.


    Generally, I usually avoid the fella that is going to puke on me, but I understand how it is sometimes unavoidable. ;)

    Sure, I would go with the "bar" generalization since these are areas for socializing, and, believe it or not, pubs are great for networking as well. My father and I started an oil exploration crew on my families land only due to the fact we met the right fellas at a bar, which they were regulars found at this particular bar. I would not spit down on the bar too much, but it most definitely depends on which kind of bar we are talking about. ;)

    Bastion of higher learning? I would love to read the thought process as to why you believe that I believe this from what I wrote, which this persuades me to insert a quite interesting quotation:

    5) You do realize that for you to have that Goldfish millions and millions are put to death in ways that would make most people puke? You can point fingers at others, but us buying these fish is the only reason so many are killed in the cheapest manner possible. Plenty of blood to go around.

    Indeed. And then some continue with it after an encounter with the Aquascape pond cleaning crew. ;)


    6) We already have fish at a monetary premium for access to restrict the rift raft. I don't think price would make much difference. My guess if she thought it was fashionable to carry a live $1,000 Goldfish around in her purse that Paris Hilton would. When paying $20K for an outfit to be worn once I don't think a $1,000 Goldfish would stop them. The high price would probably make wearing live Goldfish fashionable. Not too pick on Paris, but wealth is not the same as knowledge or certain morals.

    Fair enough, except price would make a difference if you are the one selling. I know fellas, from a local fish store, that buy the cheap PetsMart fish, grow them out in there pond, and then resale the fish for around a hundred dollars.
     
    crsublette, Sep 15, 2013
    #54
  15. JohnHuff

    Waterbug

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    I used to too. Got boring.
     
    Waterbug, Sep 16, 2013
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  16. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    ^_^ Welp, WB, you are one of my favorite tango partners. :eek: :0000000057: :banana: :fechten2: :bdaybiggrin:
     
    crsublette, Sep 16, 2013
    #56
  17. JohnHuff

    JohnHuff Friends call me Dr. Sir John Huff

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    Regarding the above conversation, I also seem to be noticing that except for us diehards, most people just sign on, ask a few questions, then leave and never to be seen again. WB, if that seems to be a concern and a waste of your time, why even bother?

    I've already said this before, but I've learned a lot from the forums. There's good and bad advice and over time you learn what's good and what's not. Sometimes someone just mentions a word, a term that I've never heard of before so I read up about it and presto, I know something that I didn't before.

    But here's another thing that no one has mentioned. I first noticed this when I was teaching my kids school work and they in turn taught others. When you explain something to someone or teach something to someone, you get better at it. You learn though the process of teaching someone else. So this is a side benefit, and a win-win situation. At least, it works for me.
     
    JohnHuff, Sep 16, 2013
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  18. JohnHuff

    Dave 54

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    John its the same on every forum you get the odd question being asked by new members then you never see them again , fine by me but sometimes its first impressions that count i;e speed of answer friendliness, politeness etc.
    Before the site I ran folded after a three year time span and over 1700 members (its owner couldnt afford to it anymore),many came back again and again simply because for one they got accurate answers but didnt understand the first thing about fish.
    I found some were able to take onboard what you were telling them and with others it went right over their head.
    The ones that understood stayed with us and posted many a thread always wanting to learn more infact two guys that joined are now firm friends and live in Plymouth.
    As to bad advise we tried to answer their problems with nothing but good advise.
    We had a woman who because she had read it somewhere used to pour tubs of yogurt directly into her pond everyday then wonder why her pond was like it was, she would blame everyone but herself for her fish mortalities (on two sites) but within the space of one week she managed to get herself banned she was that disrupive a week later I heard she was banned from a further site because she used photo's without the permissin of the owner.
    I found out later that she is in acctual fact a senior member of koiphen, as to why we got this behavour from her, well the jury is still out on that
    The other type that I realy hate are the ones who sign up and do nothing post wise ever.
    I dont know why but I just think they like to collect forums.
    I've only ever once had to ban a person for being racist and that believe it or not was against me ( I was adopted out as a baby from a Romany Gypsy family and given to a childless couple who were Local Government Officers.
    I didnt give him a second chance and its one of my pet hates (we all live on this planet) we should sadly by now if we had good leadership from people in power have a peaceful and friendy place to live in (I can dream cant I). but we all know the political elk are just in it for themslves.
    When it folded I lost reams of data which I was trying to save off in microsoft office word all valuble well researched data gone into cyberspace never tobe seen again so sad as WB so rightly said.
    Would I run a site again m,mmmm the answer to that is well like you I learned alott from them but like WB and Charles found forums so time consuming that it started to take up much of my day so the answer has to be no.
    Because of sleep issues I tend to try come on at night and early morning only , I have however done the occasional afternoon.


    rgrds

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 16, 2013
    #58
  19. JohnHuff

    JohnHuff Friends call me Dr. Sir John Huff

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    Off topic -
    Dave54, I run two forums not associated with fish. One is private by invitation and the other one larger but completely open. The open forum has evolved over time. There was a time when it was much, much bigger than now, but much more difficult to run because of a few pranksters and some people who did not have any sense of humor. Over time, I banned the pranksters and the people who didn't have a sense of humor stopped coming because they always felt slighted by something, somewhere, sometime. I like the way it is currently because even though the focus is narrowed (since I banned certain topics) and the member base smaller, the people are for the most part friendlier and more understanding. More is not better.

    As I have already mentioned in post #1 of this thread, I most often find WB's information to be useful, you will really have to wade through it. Sometimes, I don't see what he's saying until after I read it a few times. He's right about the guy who wants him to keep his answers under 25 words. It's like when the waiter asks how you want your steak, rare or not, he doesn't want a treatise on the benefits of grilling vs. frying or the differences between cooking at sea level or in Denver. Just under 25 words on how you want your steak done will do.

    I have to admit the same thing with Charles. Often, his posts are much, much more overly technical than WB's. Professional grade, I call it. Really, you need to tailor the information to the guy requesting it, otherwise it's wasted. In the case of the steak, Charles, will launch on to the chemical make up of steak molecules and how heat changes the chemical bonds of carbon molecules and how the shape of the heated molecules fit into the receptors on the tongue. Terrific information, no doubt, but the answer must be tailored to the person asking.
     
    JohnHuff, Sep 16, 2013
    #59
    HARO likes this.
  20. JohnHuff

    Dave 54

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    off topic:-
    John your right there wb does give out some really good information that I respect him for and just wish he wasnt so damn unapproachable I too tried to PM him to appologise when we got off on the wrong foot.
    I feel he lacks patiance in novices but can be quite cutting in his ways and as such I dont know how to take him
    Charles too I agree his answers are rather in depth/technical but again it's good honest information. I also agree more is not better, we had a hard core of around 24 people who would post all the time some you wouldn't hear a peep ot of for months but would pop up again mostly when they hit problems.
    I also found in some cases you would have to simplify information because as you say some can be lost on a person especially if they are new to the hobby but I ran a good clean website noted for its answers and the polite way it was presented to folk.
    In between that I acted as unofficial PR man for a dear friend who runsthe UK's only goldfish and koi rescue service, she was one of two mentors who took me through our first ever winter outside
    I won her valuable backing from Tetra who would supply her free of charge food test kits and chemicals which would arrive when she needed it.
    Sadly though due to Val's MD the rest of my time is spent caring for her which I'm finding harder and harder to do because of my own disabilities but love concurs all and I gladly do it, then add to that the pond thats much of my weekends with Val taken up.
    Running the site I did for Carl (the owner), twice because of all the presures in my life I broke down but picked myself up and carried on, however I think that's the main reason I wouldnt want to run another site but enjoy helping when and were I can here.

    rgrds

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 16, 2013
    #60
    Neo likes this.
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