New pond......3 dead fish today..argh

[nc0gnet0]

Hello all,

Pond newbie here, though I have been researching a lot the last few weeks. Great forum you have going here, been reading as much as possible but today I was presented with my first real issue........3 dead fish.

First some background. Its a pond slightly under 1000 gallons, 6-7 weeks old. Dimensions are approximately 10 x 6 x 2 feet deep ( these are not consistent so I rounded off). It is a retaining wall pond built into the side of a hill. I am running a 2500 GPH pump located in a skimmer and into a waterfall filtration spillway that house bio-balls and pads. The waterfall has 4 stages/levels and drops about 3 feet with a lot of water flow. I should be getting plenty of oxygenation. This plus two more small pumps running into those ornamental frogs that "spit"

I have city water, chlorinated i am sure. In the beginning I filled the pond up with a garden hose and let it run for a week before adding a couple fancy goldfish, starter bacteria and some water hyacinth. For a time I was having a water leak issue, and was needing to add water everyday from the hose. I finally discovered that my water was disappearing through a leak in the hose that fed my waterfall. Through the process I added some Lilly pads and more fish and all was well.

Right around the three week stage, I developed the dreaded algae bloom. i tried to address this with mechanical 5 micron filtration and water changes everyday of about 70 gallons. What I would do would be to fill one of those small plastic kiddie pools everyday, let it sit for 24 hours and then pump the water into the pond through a home made activated carbon filter. This filter consisted of a pvc housing of 4" in diameter and about 18" long. In it I placed a 12" long 50 micron sock and filed it with AC to give me about 14" of AC the water had to pass through before exited the filter. I did this to hopefully treat any Chlorine/chloramane that had not dissipated in the 24 hour sitting period.

Alas, this was to no avail and my water stayed green, however the fish were healthy. Enter eBay and a 13 watt UV. When I received this UV I installed a 5 micron filter at the discharge of the UV and whala, within three days my water was crystal clear. In the process we added some more fish.

Well I came home today ( the last fish we added was Saturday) and discovered three dead fish (one small one became lodged in the small pump that fed the ornamental frog and I noticed a changed in water flow and went to inspect the pump). Further examination revealed 2 more dead fish.

Of the fish that died, one was from Saturday and each of the others was from a different dealer. Most of my fish were rather inexpensive as I bout most of them in the 4-6 inch or smaller range. I do however have a couple of nicer 8-10" fantail koi that I paid $50 each for. Yes I now know the importance of quarantine. I guess I figured I would spend more money on a quarantine setup than I did the fish, and justified it that way in my over ambitiousness.

The thing is I am not convinced it is a disease, and maybe more a water quality issue. The remaining fish are all very active, swimming and eating fine. They play in the waterfall (not linger, just play) eat the plants, etc etc. I am still waiting for my Test kit to arrive and for the time being I can only test PH, which seems rather high.......around 8.5-8.8 would be my guess using a strip. Out of the tap my ph tests 7.5. But if I let it sit and breath for a day it then tests high just like my pond in the 8.5 range.....this I don't understand. Furthermore, when I run it through the AC filter, it seems to lower the PH almost to the level of the tap water, which really should not be happening either.

For the interim, a took the AC filter which I previously only used when doing a water change, and placed it into the filtration loop with the UV and 5 micron filter. This slowed down the water-flow through the UV, but for now my water is clear so that is a non-issue.

I have seen no symptoms in the fish, only that 3 died. I am not discounted the very real possibility that I introduced a disease, just not convinced this is the cause. But if anyone recommends a good all purpose medication, I would be sure to get it if you thought it might help.

I am concerned about my ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels and until my test kit(s) arrive was wondering if I should add some zeolite to my AC as a precautionary measure.

Any suggestions?

 

[koikeepr]

wow, this is a long one. Lots of things in there. First off, I wouldn't add anything to my water without seeing the water quality tests first. I'm not a big fan of shot gun care without really knowing the real story.

Is there any reason why you just didnt run out to the local pet shop to purchase a test kit instead of waiting for one in the mail? I think it's fine to think ahead and buy online if it's cheaper, but clearly you have a situation where a test kit should not wait--you are losing fish.

When you lose fish just a few days after purchasing them, in my experience it can be things like a) poor fish acclimitization (letting your bag float for at least 30 minutes for temp matching, slowly mixing he bag water and pond water, etc.); or your water quality is off. I can certainly be an illness, but it seems you got the fish at slightly different times, and you're getting them from different dealers.

First things, you should not buy another fish until you get your water quality under control. You'll just be throwing more money away by adding more fish to this environment, and unfortunately killing some innocent critters.

Without knowing your water info, its kind of hard to help you at this stage. But please don't add any more fish until you can see that your water is stable for at least a 2-3 month stretch.

You mention that you have 900 gals. The other possibility on top of A and B I mentioned above is that you might have too many fish. How many fish do you have in 900 gals right now?

 

[nc0gnet0]

To be quite honest with you I have not found any decent test kits locally. It wasn't so much me trying to save a dime as rather buying a better kit that lead me to wait.BTW, what test kit do you recomend? I have 8 fish currently, but most are small with a fish load under 30 inches. I have read not to exceed 1" of fish for every 10 gallons of water 900/10 = 90 Iinches so I am well under that threshold.

I agree on the shotgun approach and been trying to avoid chems. To date the only thing I have added is the good bacteria starter. As I matter of fact, I added some last night per instructions. I have not however have not added any salt to the pond thus far, should I ? I am really baffled aobut my PH and why letting tap water sit a day to dechlorinate would increase its PH.

I did acclamate the fish properly, of the three that died only one was purchased this week, the other two over two weeks ago.

I agree about adding more fish, unfortunatly I live in Michigan, and waiting three months would put me into November. Part of the reason for adding fish from different dealers was it is getting past the "season" for dealers to purchase koi and pickins are slim. We ended up vistiing many dealers to only find one or two that we liked. In hindsight this was a bad idea.

 

[koikeepr]

I understand about the getting fish late in the season. But, you really need to to just stick with the fish you have at the moment and get things stabilized and buy next season. Based on the numbers you are providing on the number of fish you have for a 900 gal pond, you already have way too many.

You are not just calculating the size of the fish per gallon of water for the size the fish are today. Koi grow fast, and you need to consider what size they will be as they reach maturity. Honestly, in your size pond you should not have more than 2 or 3 koi at max. So, you're essentially way over populated at the moment. I would not buy any others if I were you.

Liquid test kits are much more accurate than the paper strips. So, you should try to get that if you can. However, since you have a bit of an emergency situation, you should run to your local Petsmart and just buy whatever they have because you need to know what your numbers are immediately, so you can make remediations to your water if the quality is off kilter.

What will you do if your numbers are off and need to lower the Ph or some other thing? Will you mail order the products again and wait for them to arrive? It's important as ponders (and for the quality of life of our fish) that we are prepared up front with an arsenal of stuff to be able to jump on it if it happens.

For example, I have never had ich, but I've got stuff in the house ready if I spot anything. I always have pond salt on hand in case I see anything funny going on with the fish. And on and on... be ready so that you are proactive and not reactive and losing fish.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I understand about the getting fish late in the season. But, you really need to to just stick with the fish you have at the moment and get things stabilized and buy next season. Based on the numbers you are providing on the number of fish you have for a 900 gal pond, you already have way too many.

You are not just calculating the size of the fish per gallon of water for the size the fish are today. Koi grow fast, and you need to consider what size they will be as they reach maturity. Honestly, in your size pond you should not have more than 2 or 3 koi at max. So, you're essentially way over populated at the moment. I would not buy any others if I were you.

You misunderstand, not all the fish are koi...only 3 of them. And yes I realize they will grow, but next season brings another pond. Are you saying that 30 inches of fish now are too many for 900 gallons? And no, I don't plan on adding any more fish this season, I was explaining the conundrum of adding fish from mulitple dealers like I did.

Should I add salt?

 

[nc0gnet0]

Ok here is an update.

I came home today after stopping at the pet store and buying an API Freshwater Master Test Kit. All the fish seemed fine. I conducted all the tests and here are my results as best as I can tell.


Ph level seems to be in the 8.3 to 8.4 range.....seems awful high

Ammonia level is at 0 possibly a hair above but definately much closer to zero than the next reading which is .25 on the color chart.


Nitrite is dead on zero
Nitrate is a hair above zero but much closer to zero than the next step up which was 5.0, if I had to guess I would say .5 to 1.0

Now the API Master test kit did not come with a chlorine/chloramine test kit so I bought some Quick dip aquarium test strips for that as well. I must say I was not too impressed with this test strip as even my tap water seemed to test zero. At any rate the pond water tested zero for Chlorine and maybe but I am not sure just a hint of free chlorine.

Just for kicks I added one eye dropper full of chlorox to a glass of water and tested it for chlorine....it tested off the charts.

So, from what I can tell, my water situation with the exception of an elevated PH seems to be pretty good.

At the conclusion of the test results I added 1/3 a bottle of API Stress coat, which the pet store recomended to me. The full bottle would treat 946 gallons but I thought it best to add it gradually.



I must say I really expected to find something more amiss with the water quality than I did, any ideas?

 

[DrDave]

I have 9ea large breeder Koi, 5ea 2 year old koi, 12ea 1 year old koi and maybe a 1000 12week old Koi in a 1500 gallon pond and they are all very healthy. Your 8 Koi in 900 gallons should be fine unless you have a disease or virus affecting the Koi. The secret is maintaining the water quality through good management.

The levels that you stated are fine exept the PH is a little high. You might lower that to below 7.8. Although I don't think that killed your Koi.

Keep us posted. Just a suggestion, keep it short and factual, long wordey replies do not set well with being able to focus on your problem.

 

[koikeepr]

c'mon doc dave! Are you trying to tell someone that having 26 koi + 1000 12 week olds is ok in a 1500 gal pond???

I think you are a RARE exception to the rule. I think this sends a bad message to the average beginning ponder...

With all due respect...

 

[nc0gnet0]

Just to clarify, I have 8 fish not 8 koi. 3 of the eight are koi, the other 5 goldfish. I understand what koikeeper was getting at, but the goldfish will never reach the size that that koi do.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Does anyone here have a preference of the best way to lower PH or will it drop naturally as the pond ages?

 

[DrDave]

I am not suggesting for a single moment that they can all stay there. My breeder Koi are the only permanent residents of my ponds. What I am saying, is that if you know what you are doing, you can bend the rules for short periods of time.

I expect my readers to be intelligent enough to read between the lines and interpollate the results.

Ponders who are on top of their pond maintenance and know what they are doing, can overpopulate for short periods of time and get away with it. My 1000 baby Koi, do not make as much waste as 1 of the adult Koi.

These koi will all be sold in the next few months, long before they can become a bio hazard. I trust this is an adequate explanation for you.

You told nc0gnet0 that 8 Koi were way too many for a 900 gallon pond. Only 3 are Koi and 5 are goldfish. I don't know where you get this information, but that is wrong and irresponsible to state to someone who has fish dying and they are in distress themselves.

We are here to help, not to cause more concern. The issue in this post was his dying fish and the current population of his remaining fish.

 

[koikeepr]

Just to clarify, I have 8 fish not 8 koi. 3 of the eight are koi, the other 5 goldfish. I understand what koikeeper was getting at, but the goldfish will never reach the size that that koi do.

It's not just size of fish to take into consideration, but also the fact that goldfish are monster poopers just like koi. So, the waste generated by all those fish will be high.

 

[koikeepr]

I am not suggesting for a single moment that they can all stay there. My breeder Koi are the only permanent residents of my ponds. What I am saying, is that if you know what you are doing, you can bend the rules for short periods of time.

I expect my readers to be intelligent enough to read between the lines and interpollate the results.

Ponders who are on top of their pond maintenance and know what they are doing, can overpopulate for short periods of time and get away with it. My 1000 baby Koi, do not make as much waste as 1 of the adult Koi.

These koi will all be sold in the next few months, long before they can become a bio hazard. I trust this is an adequate explanation for you.

You told nc0gnet0 that 8 Koi were way too many for a 900 gallon pond. Only 3 are Koi and 5 are goldfish. I don't know where you get this information, but that is wrong and irresponsible to state to someone who has fish dying and they are in distress themselves.

We are here to help, not to cause more concern. The issue in this post was his dying fish and the current population of his remaining fish.

right, and over population of fish in a pond IS a potential cause of dying fish.

And I'm glad you clearly explained your fish load here to all the readers, so they can undeniably understand that your situation is a temporary one and also one that a person in your unusual situation can handle. I think your previous answer suggested that it's perfectly normal to have a load like that.

 

[anitapond]

Out of the tap my ph tests 7.5. But if I let it sit and breath for a day it then tests high just like my pond in the 8.5 range.....this I don't understand.

My pond had a ph of 8.0 in the morning and 8.8 in the afternoon, and although the goldfish were fine, my pond plants were suffering. I performed 5% water changes every day to bring the level down, as my fresh tap water's ph tested 7.2. I tested the ph every day for 3 weeks and it was always the same; therefore, water changes weren't working. I couldn't figure out why. Then, a chemist suggested that I leave my tap water sit for 24 hrs. and retest. Of course, I asked why. Here's the answer:

"That will show you the true pH of the tap water when all the gases are at normal equilibrium levels. For example, my well water comes out of the tap at a pH of 6.5 or so but, once aerated or sat, it goes up to 7 to 7.5. My well water has low alkalinity and hardness so the pH easily went down from compressed carbon dioxide. Once you find out the pH of your tap water after it's equilibrated, you can know how far off it is from your pond's pH and how much of an improvement it might make when doing water changes."

Well, guess what? After letting my tap water sit, the ph was 8.0. That explains why the water changes were not helping to lower my ph after all.

It is better to have a stable, high ph than a low ph with goldfish. Plus, if your pond is adequately buffered, lowering the ph would only be temporary. You really don't want a ph crash to kill your fish.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Anitapond-

Yes that explains alot, I am expierancing the same thing. Out of the tap my water has a lower ph. I let it stabilize in a small plastic kiddie pool for a day ( to help dechlonitate ) and the PH shoots up to the same as the pond. My area has notoriously hard water and that might be adding to the problem. Inside the home our water is softened with a water softning system, but the water I use for the pond is not softened.

I understand I will most likely be stuck with a higher than norm PH but was wondering if I should'nt try to get it to around 7.8 to make life a little easier on the fish and plants. (yes I realize that I would have to lower it very slowly if possible)

I have one last water source to test, perhaps i will have better luck with that. My house (and all the others in our suburb) sits on clay soil. We have a sump pump in the basement that runs periodically that gets directed to a strom drain. Perhaps this water might be lower in PH as it should be basically just like/ ground/well water.

At any rate as of this morning the remaining fish are all well and show no signs of being sick. Still wondering what might have happened, after reading about KVH in another thread I suspected the worse.

I do have a question on how you all manage to quarantine new fish, exspecially those with only one pond.