Question on water change

Discussion in 'Water Chemistry' started by Gemma, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. Gemma

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    And they don't live very long either even with water changes. Stress related maybe?

    http://pets.thenest.com/goldfish-need-tank-filtered-water-12107.html

    Hardly an example to explain the benefits of water changes. River water is generally fairly consistent in quality and chemical composition for miles. Most changes that do occur are gradual. In those cases where the chemistry of the water may be noticeably altered, like downstream of a mine, research has shown that those fish that reside upstream of this effluent release avoid any part of the river downstream of the effluent release.

    We seem to be wandering away from the main point of discussion. That being--
    Are periodic recurring water changes really necessary in maintaining the overall environmental health of a pond?
    In the case of eco-ponds, science says no.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 27, 2017
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  2. Gemma

    audioenvy

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    Given my fish load (fifteen koi between 15 and 30 inches long) and the lack of plants I will be using two biological filters (a bead filter fed by the skimmer pump) and a bakki-style shower filled with ceramic media above the waterfall fed by the bottom drains. Even without water changes, the water is extremely clear and when the sun is out I can definitely tell whether or not a penny on the bottom is heads or tails ;)

    Because my pond is recently finished, right now I'm letting the filters cycle and trying to avoid doing major water changes that would slow that down. Once that's completed I honestly don't know how much water I'll have to change beyond filter flushing. I know most dedicated koi pond owners do routine water changes. I'll probably target 10% or less per week just as part of routine filter flushing (allowing more water to flush than is needed)--but I won't know for sure until possibly next spring.

    File Sep 24, 9 54 47 PM.jpeg
    Photo added to illustrate the total lack of plants LOL.
     
    audioenvy, Sep 27, 2017
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  3. Gemma

    MitchM

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    I'm pretty skeptical about that claim.
    The truth is that we don't know when a water change has negatively affected a fish. Gills, kidneys and the slime coat could very well be damaged as a result of the water change. We don't know. Many, many fish die for unknown reasons, and especially new pond keepers are not aware of the dangers.

    "Prime" and "Stress Coat" products are best sellers because of the inherent danger of water changes.


    .
     
    MitchM, Sep 27, 2017
  4. Gemma

    Mucky_Waters

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    Meyer there is a plethora of articles out there supporting regular water changes in ponds and aquariums and almost nothing to the contrary, I personally have restrained myself from posting any links to these articles because I know if I did your argument would simple be that "it is not scientific or scholarly article therefore it carries no weight". But I have also noticed you have no qualms about posting these same sort of links when you think they support your stance. Having said that, the article you linked actually supports frequent water changes for good fish health, "If adding a filter is simply not an option, you must perform water changes frequently".
    Again, you are twisting things here, the original gist of the thread here that Gemma started was the proper procedure for doing water changes, not whether to do them or not. Go back and read her original post, Mitch was the one who originally wandered away from that discussion with his loaded question, funny you didn't try and get it back on course way back then, I wonder why?
     
    Mucky_Waters, Sep 27, 2017
  5. Gemma

    Mucky_Waters

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    Mitch have you ever kept a goldfish in a bowl like that? I have, and so have many people. Sure, neglect to do those regular water changes and that fish will suffer and possibly even die, but if you take care to do regular water changes the fish can live just fine for years and years.
     
    Mucky_Waters, Sep 27, 2017
  6. Gemma

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    The Walstad method for aquariums comes to mind. Once tank is established, water changes are not needed.

    I have not posted many links to scientific research because there is none on this subject. I have and can post articles from the aquaculture industry that supports operating a system with no water changes (RAS and Zero Water Exchange)

    Correct. the caveat in this statement is expressed in the opening phrase "If adding a filter is not an option". In other words, if a filter is in use, frequent water changes become unnecessary..
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 27, 2017
  7. Gemma

    MitchM

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    No, I haven't.
    It's beyond me why pet/pond stores don't educate their customers about the nitrogen cycle and sell test kits along with ammonia. I think fish owners would make much better decisions about fish care and water quality.
    Way too many old wives tales about under what conditions water changes are appropriate.
     
    MitchM, Sep 27, 2017
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  8. Gemma

    Mucky_Waters

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    Nowhere in the article you linked does it say that. To the contrary it say "regardless of filter design. Also, even with a filter installed, it is necessary to perform weekly water changes to maintain cleanliness and pH balance. For tanks or bowls that hold less than 10 gallons, change about 25 percent of the water by removing and replacing it. For tanks larger than 10 gallons, change about 15 percent of the water each week."
    Did you even read the article?

    Maybe you should take your own advice and get this discussion back on track.
     
    Mucky_Waters, Sep 27, 2017
  9. Gemma

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Which article are you referring to?
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 27, 2017
  10. Gemma

    MitchM

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    I'm not allowed to talk politics here, I need the drama.:p
    Sorry.
     
    MitchM, Sep 27, 2017
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  11. Gemma

    MitchM

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    The thing about fish breeders is that they will push the limits to maximize the results of breeding.
    They look at water changes as a cheap form of filtration, not part of a balanced ecosystem.

    Water changes can also induce spawning behaviour depending on the species.

    .
     
    MitchM, Sep 27, 2017
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  12. Gemma

    MitchM

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    I am not someone that considers ponds and aquariums separate.
    I see them all as aquatic environments that are affected one way or another by their environment, the pond/storage totes are a starting point, that's it. Not sustainable long term, that for sure.
     
    MitchM, Sep 27, 2017
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  13. Gemma

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    And that is the thing. Inland Aquaculture has been steadily moving towards the current Zero Water Exchange system for some time now as it is not environmentally responsible to dump the waste water from the farming systems, not to mention the permitting and fees attached. With these current systems the only water that is added is to replace that lost to evaporation.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 27, 2017
  14. Gemma

    Gemma

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    That^^^ should make everyone happy!
     
    Gemma, Sep 27, 2017
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  15. Gemma

    Lisak1

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    I meant as part of this conversation. We touched on smaller ponds (or totes or aquariums or fish bowls) being in their own category.

    Sure. I don't really know that they ARE stressful so I'll stay away from that argument... although I don't know if anyone in this conversation has really proven that they AREN'T.

    But anyway - I just like to put myself out there as someone with a well functioning pond who doesn't do water changes. If all anyone ever reads or hears is the "gotta do it" side, it becomes gospel.
     
    Lisak1, Sep 28, 2017
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  16. Gemma

    Lisak1

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    OK - now to me there's an argument against water changes. It's not just your filter that cycles - the pond WATER is part of that cycle. When you add water that's not been through that cycle, how are you NOT affecting the balance in your pond?
     
    Lisak1, Sep 28, 2017
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  17. Gemma

    brokensword Not all those who wander are lost

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    Well, I don't breed fish (anymore) so maybe my anecdote won't count, but for years now, I change the water in my saltwater aquarium only to get rid of possible nitrate buildup. But that said, I don't have any mechanical filtration, just what lives in the aquarium on the live rock. And even in the above water change, I do it probably every 2 months or so, about 30% change. But in doing so, I'm also replenishing any trace elements the fish/crustaceans use for growth.
     
    brokensword, Sep 28, 2017
  18. Gemma

    audioenvy

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    I can state UNEQUIVOCALLY that professional koi keepers do constant water changes. Even the mud ponds have flow through. Whether or not there is any science behind it (they believe it removes pheromones from the water that would otherwise slow growth), the fact is that they do it. And they do it a LOT. As much as 10% per day.

    Is such a practice necessary for a small garden pond with relatively small fish load? Probably not--but I just want to make sure we're not trying to apply one situation to all situations.
     
    audioenvy, Sep 28, 2017
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  19. Gemma

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Could you furnish a link to support this. I have never seen flow through mentioned being associated with breeders' mud ponds.

    Yes Professional Koi Keepers do perform water changes on a regular basis. This has never been in dispute. The nature of a DKP pretty much mandates that they be done unless other means are utilized to deal with excess Nitrate and toxins.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 28, 2017
  20. Gemma

    audioenvy

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    The 40 second mark specifically, but the first few minutes talk about water changes.

     
    audioenvy, Sep 28, 2017
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