Question on water change

Discussion in 'Water Chemistry' started by Gemma, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. Gemma

    Mucky_Waters

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    The one you yourself posted a link to to support no water change necessary stance.
    http://pets.thenest.com/goldfish-need-tank-filtered-water-12107.html
    This is the entire paragraph ...
    Filter Considerations
    "The filter should be able to cycle the water volume of the tank 10 times an hour. For example, a 10-gallon goldfish tank needs a filter that will cycle at least 100 gallons every hour, regardless of filter design. Also, even with a filter installed, it is necessary to perform weekly water changes to maintain cleanliness and pH balance. For tanks or bowls that hold less than 10 gallons, change about 25 percent of the water by removing and replacing it. For tanks larger than 10 gallons, change about 15 percent of the water each week."
     
    Mucky_Waters, Sep 28, 2017
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  2. Gemma

    Magzire

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    The guru has spoken, 15% each day. Case close.
    /End thread
     
    Magzire, Sep 28, 2017
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  3. Gemma

    audioenvy

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    Hahaha! Again, Andy doesn't deal with garden ponds so it's apples to oranges but he does talk about the importance of inflow into mud ponds where the whole point is rapid fish growth.
     
    audioenvy, Sep 28, 2017
  4. Gemma

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Do you have any other links. I have seen this video before. He also believes in the 'mythical' anti-growth pheromone.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 28, 2017
  5. Gemma

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Yes the article does state all of that. I posted the link specifically because it addressed the life span of a Goldfish in a bowl with or without water changes.

    Here is my statement that accompanied the link.
    "And they don't live very long either even with water changes. Stress related maybe?"
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 28, 2017
  6. Gemma

    audioenvy

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    I didn't say it was science--I just said they did it. Mud ponds fill from rain and snow runoff so there is natural flow-through. It's not anywhere near the 10% per day of the winter holding tanks but it's not a stagnant body of water either.
     
    audioenvy, Sep 28, 2017
  7. Gemma

    bettasngoldfish Maria

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    That's because goldfish don't belong in bowls. They simply get too large for an environment so small. It is now generally recommend that fancy goldfish have a minimum of 20 gallons per fish. Commons/comets are recommend to have 40 gallons per fish (adult size)

    Here is some information on caring for goldfish. Water changes are discussed.

    https://www.bristol-aquarists.org.uk/goldfish/info/keeping-fs.htm



    By the way, several of my bettas over the years lived in bowls with routine complete water changes and they lived to see 5 and 6 years old. Pretty good for a betta.
     
    bettasngoldfish, Sep 28, 2017
  8. Gemma

    MitchM

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    For 6 months of the year, I cannot do any water changes, my pond is frozen over.
    I do not care about growth rates, colour or breeding volumes, therefore I focus on a healthy overall ecosystem.
    Isn't that the best environment for any living creature?

    .
     
    MitchM, Sep 28, 2017
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  9. Gemma

    MitchM

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    If that guy is using surface runoff for cheap water changes, he should be more concerned with what contaminants are in the surface runoff water, instead of pheromones.
     
    MitchM, Sep 28, 2017
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  10. Gemma

    audioenvy

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    Surface runoff? He's saying trickle water into your waterfall from your hose and use the water at the bottom of your pond to water your plants.

    The Japanese mud ponds are what use surface runoff for water changes.
     
    audioenvy, Sep 28, 2017
  11. Gemma

    MitchM

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    He refers to Japanese mud ponds and incoming water to reduce pheromone buildup, that's what I'm referring to. We advise people to put up berms to avoid surface runoff entering. Kind of a mixed message.

    .
     
    MitchM, Sep 28, 2017
  12. Gemma

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    And I agree.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 28, 2017
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  13. Gemma

    audioenvy

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    The Japanese mud pond has reached nearly magic levels of perception among Koi aficionados and I think it's more based on the fact that you are putting fish in an environment where they can't be seen and therefore there's a heightened level of anticipation for the harvest to see how they will turn out. The actual conditions probably aren't as ideal as people consider them to be--including water quality.

    http://www.yumekoi.com/images/stories/pdfs/MudPondMyth.pdf

    Anyway, at a fundamental level I agree with you and Meyer regarding the benefits of a stable ecosystem in a garden pond where water changes are not necessary to manage water quality.
     
    audioenvy, Sep 28, 2017
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  14. Gemma

    IPA

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    I imagined an arid flood plain with pools of water drying with fish in them and what would be necessary for the fish to survive until the next flood event. For me the most likely scenario was lack of eating but what if food was available, is there a queue to stop eating or will they just eat until the water is so polluted they all die?

    Part (key point part) of the discussion for regular water changes in fish keeping is centered around the concept of quorum sensing. It is documented that bacteria and insects, bees and ants for example, use quorum sensing using pheromones to determine the size of the colony relative to the environment. At question is do vertebrates release pheromones for the purpose of quorum sensing?

    I wish I had chosen biology as a career path because I know what my next research project would be. There is just not enough real evidence that this occurs outside of the fish keeping hobby/profession, and I am not saying there is evidence here either because so much seems like speculation however at the same time where is the evidence that it, quorum sensing, doesn't exist? What has caused the massively large scale population migrations from prehistoric times? Is it simply resources or do pheromones have a role to play in crowd sensing in all animals? Seems plausible.

    So all of that being said, if I want to grow big healthy Koi I am going to follow the practices that have been tried and true for so long; and though I am the type of person to want to experiment I surely wouldn't use thousands of dollars worth of fish to do it.
    And if I want to have an eco-pond that doesn't require water changes as regular maintenance I will seek the advice from those who have success in doing this.

    EDIT: STRIKE THROUGH Can't we all just agree to disagree based on the lack of evidence one way or the other.

    PS: sorry to have dragged you into this debate @audioenvy , I was just trying to use your set up as an example of a well designed system on the other spectrum of relying on plants to remove toxins.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
    IPA, Sep 28, 2017
  15. Gemma

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    I base my belief in the non-existence of an anti-growth pheromone on the complete lack of any supported scientific data on the subject save one or two decades old papers theorizing the possible existence. With much of the seafood today being produced by Aquaculture (about 50%) and growth rate to market size so critical, if such a pheromone existed there would be stacks of research papers on the subject. It would also be one of the areas of quality control in an inland aquaculture facility, but there is no mention of such a substance here either. Since there is evidently no problems encountered or reported of note in the growth rate of these farmed fish, then the inevitable conclusion is that such a problem (substance) does not exist.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 28, 2017
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  16. Gemma

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    I think that at this point we pretty much agree.

    Dedicated Koi ponds will likely require periodic water changes.
    Eco-ponds will not.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 28, 2017
  17. Gemma

    MitchM

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    Yes, sometimes my thoughts don't always come out as intended on forums/email.
    Sorry for any misunderstanding.
     
    MitchM, Sep 28, 2017
  18. Gemma

    IPA

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    Something like this?
    http://www.blueridgeaquaculture.com/
     
    IPA, Sep 28, 2017
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  19. Gemma

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Meyer Jordan, Sep 28, 2017
  20. Gemma

    audioenvy

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    No worries. I didn't take anything you said a contentious or a disagreement.
     
    audioenvy, Sep 28, 2017
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