Re-grading retaining walls for bog/ waterfall

[PondWish]

Hello, I'm wondering if anyone has drainage or structural advice for turning what is currently a 2 tiered retaining wall area into a waterfall area. Please focus only on the section outlined in blue. We are planning a large garden pond and to use the dirt dug from the pond to regrade the hill into a waterfall/ stream. The water feature will not go to the edge of the fence! The outline is just for landscaping reasons.


However, I have drainage and support concerns for the patio. We plan on leaving the retaining walls partially buried to support the land, but also hope the dirt, boulders, and grading will support it. Any recommendations, insights, or resources appreciated.

 

[GBBUDD]

Hello, I'm wondering if anyone has drainage or structural advice for turning what is currently a 2 tiered retaining wall area into a waterfall area. Please focus only on the section outlined in blue. We are planning a large garden pond and to use the dirt dug from the pond to regrade the hill into a waterfall/ stream. The water feature will not go to the edge of the fence! The outline is just for landscaping reasons.


However, I have drainage and support concerns for the patio. We plan on leaving the retaining walls partially buried to support the land, but also hope the dirt, boulders, and grading will support it. Any recommendations, insights, or resources appreciated.

first issue is building right up to the fence, its goin g to have to be shallow as your neighbors driveway in there and will need some stability.

your tree is probably going to be an issue depending on how many and which roots you hit , there's a good chance you'll kill the tree.

i had to build a retaining wall next to my patio to insure the patio didn't collapse.

my slope was similar to yourself where it drained away from the house. Biggest issue with that is not having the waterfall seen from the living area.

my solution was to use the soil from the pond excavation and change the patio view so i could see the falls head on.

you could always make a small L shaped pol at the patio have it run along the fence building up the down hill edge so your l shaped little pool emptied out so your looking at the side of the waterfall , or if your ral good you may see it head on before it turns bellow and continues down the hill

my build is in the links below

 

[PondWish]

first issue is building right up to the fence, its goin g to have to be shallow as your neighbors driveway in there and will need some stability.

your tree is probably going to be an issue depending on how many and which roots you hit , there's a good chance you'll kill the tree.

i had to build a retaining wall next to my patio to insure the patio didn't collapse.

my slope was similar to yourself where it drained away from the house. Biggest issue with that is not having the waterfall seen from the living area.

my solution was to use the soil from the pond excavation and change the patio view so i could see the falls head on.

you could always make a small L shaped pol at the patio have it run along the fence building up the down hill edge so your l shaped little pool emptied out so your looking at the side of the waterfall , or if your ral good you may see it head on before it turns bellow and continues down the hill

my build is in the links below

We plan to stay at least 10’ away from the tree. The blue is just the general landscape area, not the water. We won’t be piling dirt on top of those roots either, just mulch. Also we’re not planning on any part of the water feature being near the fence. I am concerned about drainage away from the fence and was thinking a french drain along the bottom would help.

What is a pol?

 

[Beercan31]

It's hard to tell by the photo but if your neighbors driveway is higher than your pond build and they treat the driveway with salt and or calcium that will destroy and life in your pond.

With the tree you will have to look at the tree in full bloom outer limits is your drip edge and the feeder roots will be beyond that point. It is highly advisable to get rid of the tree, its root system will work its way into any barrier you build for the pond.

 

[Laaf]

I enjoy sitting on my patio and watching my fish up close. So I would want the area closest to the patio to be pond where the fish can come up to be fed. Since you will be doing a good amount of digging anyway, I would design the pond so it is most viewable from the patio. I would make the waterfall, and a bog along the fence side or the far side of the pond from the patio. The dirt from the excavation can be used to make the waterfall area where you want it. It looks like you have a nice space to work with.

 

[PondWish]

I enjoy sitting on my patio and watching my fish up close. So I would want the area closest to the patio to be pond where the fish can come up to be fed. Since you will be doing a good amount of digging anyway, I would design the pond so it is most viewable from the patio. I would make the waterfall, and a bog along the fence side or the far side of the pond from the patio. The dirt from the excavation can be used to make the waterfall area where you want it. It looks like you have a nice space to work with.

To be honest, I feel like I’m a crazy person, because everyone keeps saying things like this. I completely understand the hill going away from the patio isn’t the most preferential. But maybe that picture doesn’t capture the hill? It’s about 4’ tall slope with the retaining walls and keeps going throughout the yard. I can’t level that area and raise another for the waterfall. I also can’t put a lot of things along the fence due to my neighbors driveway needing support. I just can’t imagine how it would work out. But maybe I’m missing something pivotal?

 

[Laaf]

Maybe post a pic from the yard towards the patio. Maybe the slope is greater than it appears. If the waterfall is on the fence side or far from the patio it is more visible than a waterfall from the patio side. Picture looking at Niagara falls from the top. It's just flat water. Versus the appearance from the falls side It's two completely different views. The work to build your pond and waterfall is short versus the years of future enjoyment. Maybe visit some ponds and check out the views from different sides. It's possible you do prefer the view from the top.

 

[Pablo]

Dont worry, you are not going crazy, lol. People are just trying to help the best we can and giving you their experiences. Another picture from the bottom of the hill looking up at the patio would help for everyone to see what you have to deal with. People are just mentioning where to locate the waterfall because generally you want to be able to view it from the patio. People here have lots of ideas, just looking at options. I know when I started thinking about my pond design and what I ended up with were pretty different because you start learning about new things. You have a great space to put a waterfall and pond, so I think you will get a nice one, just will be a lot of work as it always is.

 

[j.w]

I do love being able to sit on my front deck and see and hear the waterfall. To me that is very important!

 

[GBBUDD]

Weather you see the waterfall head on or from the side. It is very peaceful. When you standing at the top of the stream as @Pablo was saying is a completely different view one that falls way short.
That's where I mentioned before if your good you can make small pools and have the water do a 180 and fall back toward the viewer even if the hill side slopes away from you. This can make for a very interesting effec however it does not bring the koi / fish right to your feet.
Don't know if your planning on digging by hand or if your looking at machinery to help.
But there are mafia blocks that are extremely cheap. You can usually pick them up for 35 to 60 dollars each and the weigh around 4,000 pounds and are stackable. Easy way to create a retaining wall.
You can see what I'm referring to in my post going for it 12000 Gallon pond. Or in my showcase post below.

As to you think your going crazy WELCOME We are all nuts we have all spent a couple grand some fools like myself many thousands to look at fish.

But it is far more. The sounds of the waterfalls, the fish swimming by. The daily hummingbird, dragon flies and birds. Chipmunks coming in for a drink or birds bathing in the shallows.

The best advice I can give is though it is a lot of work and time consuming the year or two even three years to design and build your oasis is a step in the bucket compared to the 20 or 30 years return you get from your pond if not double if you do it right.

 

[PondWish]

Dont worry, you are not going crazy, lol. People are just trying to help the best we can and giving you their experiences. Another picture from the bottom of the hill looking up at the patio would help for everyone to see what you have to deal with. People are just mentioning where to locate the waterfall because generally you want to be able to view it from the patio. People here have lots of ideas, just looking at options. I know when I started thinking about my pond design and what I ended up with were pretty different because you start learning about new things. You have a great space to put a waterfall and pond, so I think you will get a nice one, just will be a lot of work as it always is.

 

[Pablo]

Thanks that picture helps greatly to see how big a drop you are looking at. @GBBUDD I am sure will have some ideas, he has shared some. I am guessing that you would somehow curl the water a bit to the right side of that picture and then have the waterfall facing you on the patio or at least have it sideways to the patio. Do look at the pictures of his project he had to do a retaining wall by his patio. I think @combatwombat also had to deal with that in his project he may chime in here also.

 

[older Mama]

Hello, I'm wondering if anyone has drainage or structural advice for turning what is currently a 2 tiered retaining wall area into a waterfall area. Please focus only on the section outlined in blue. We are planning a large garden pond and to use the dirt dug from the pond to regrade the hill into a waterfall/ stream. The water feature will not go to the edge of the fence! The outline is just for landscaping reasons.


However, I have drainage and support concerns for the patio. We plan on leaving the retaining walls partially buried to support the land, but also hope the dirt, boulders, and grading will support it. Any recommendations, insights, or resources appreciated.

Have you considered the area where you want the waterfall to be and make it a bog that has a small waterfall going into you pond?

 

[GBBUDD]

Considering that your yard drops away from the viewing area and the house. Depending on how ambitious you are and how much of a statement you want to make. there are a couple tricks i would look at. One having the water feature cut into the patio makes it look like it was always there and the home was built around it.

one of the best examples i can think of is Brian Helfrich https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/some-very-impressive-pond-builds.26353/page-2
HIS WATERFALL Is outstanding along with having boulders cut into the patio. now i understand with the immediate drop from the patio this is not really feasible.

But what i would do is where you already have some flower pots in the corner i would bake a 24" wall if you use retaining wall to match or make a contrasting rock wall.

now i get it your not going to want to take away too much space on the patio but lifting the top of the falls just that little bit will bring the water to you. with careful planting this can be your flower area without a plastic pot. One that also has a little pool water flowing over to where it drops over a waterfall. that is at a angle much like Brian's.

So while his amount of water is not massive in his waterfall the impact sure is. as it drops down below the users feet it meets a pool where just watching bubbles drift down stream can be entertaining even for an old biker." maybe I partied too much in my day"?

But these crazy little bubbles take you on a ride. They draw your eye to the next area of the feature .

so in your picture off to the right of the leaf bag is what i would build up . have the waterfall drop where the bag is and the point of the shovel. The area the shovel is at would be built up two more rows of retaining blocks brining the pool just a little higher so you can clearly see it from the patio.

Now since these are actual retaining walls you don't want to dig lower than the walls thus building up the walls even if only 8 inches to a foot the reflecting pool there will look great, a boulder in the middle or a tree stump maybe a log.

that reflecting pool would narrow as it went toward the house not a lot but enough to give it some shape other than a straight line. there are no straight lines in nature. Then you could make more waterfalls dropping toward the camera but because it is so wide an area i would make like brians a small thin waterfall off to one side maybe even two that makes a pooling area and a place for some bog plants like pitcher plants that give a splash of color year round though browning too in winter. you can see pitchers here

All while a water fall or stream comes down between the planting pools. and drops into your koi pond. My yard which is the video above use to drop away from my patio as well though it only dropped 6 feet and that was over 50 feet. so there are ways to make your slope work and work to a benefit someone who has a flat yard can't complete with but it will require more time energy and money but when your done even if it takes a couple years fall short of the 30 years of a oasis in your back yard.

Here is a blog of how i built mine and lessons learned along with considerations you may need to build yours.

Welcome to insanity with a big smile, a drink in one hand with your feet up. Homecation

 

[PondWish]

Considering that your yard drops away from the viewing area and the house. Depending on how ambitious you are and how much of a statement you want to make. there are a couple tricks i would look at. One having the water feature cut into the patio makes it look like it was always there and the home was built around it.

one of the best examples i can think of is Brian Helfrich https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/some-very-impressive-pond-builds.26353/page-2
HIS WATERFALL Is outstanding along with having boulders cut into the patio. now i understand with the immediate drop from the patio this is not really feasible.

But what i would do is where you already have some flower pots in the corner i would bake a 24" wall if you use retaining wall to match or make a contrasting rock wall.

now i get it your not going to want to take away too much space on the patio but lifting the top of the falls just that little bit will bring the water to you. with careful planting this can be your flower area without a plastic pot. One that also has a little pool water flowing over to where it drops over a waterfall. that is at a angle much like Brian's.

So while his amount of water is not massive in his waterfall the impact sure is. as it drops down below the users feet it meets a pool where just watching bubbles drift down stream can be entertaining even for an old biker." maybe I partied too much in my day"?

But these crazy little bubbles take you on a ride. They draw your eye to the next area of the feature .

so in your picture off to the right of the leaf bag is what i would build up . have the waterfall drop where the bag is and the point of the shovel. The area the shovel is at would be built up two more rows of retaining blocks brining the pool just a little higher so you can clearly see it from the patio.

Now since these are actual retaining walls you don't want to dig lower than the walls thus building up the walls even if only 8 inches to a foot the reflecting pool there will look great, a boulder in the middle or a tree stump maybe a log.

that reflecting pool would narrow as it went toward the house not a lot but enough to give it some shape other than a straight line. there are no straight lines in nature. Then you could make more waterfalls dropping toward the camera but because it is so wide an area i would make like brians a small thin waterfall off to one side maybe even two that makes a pooling area and a place for some bog plants like pitcher plants that give a splash of color year round though browning too in winter. you can see pitchers here

All while a water fall or stream comes down between the planting pools. and drops into your koi pond. My yard which is the video above use to drop away from my patio as well though it only dropped 6 feet and that was over 50 feet. so there are ways to make your slope work and work to a benefit someone who has a flat yard can't complete with but it will require more time energy and money but when your done even if it takes a couple years fall short of the 30 years of a oasis in your back yard.

Here is a blog of how i built mine and lessons learned along with considerations you may need to build yours.

Welcome to insanity with a big smile, a drink in one hand with your feet up. Homecation

I’m definitely falling into the insanity. This was a first pond project, second pond, that has now started to get out of hand. I had a very small pond that should not have ever had koi in it at my previous house (bought it that way) and I just fell in love.

So, that left me continuously making plans for a larger and larger basin and more filtration I am certainly trying to make the best aesthetic experience, but as a DIY project from someone who has always had a desk job while in the middle of massive inflation, there are limits that I feel like I’ve already stretched those limits to the point of making sense.

So either it’s wait another 5-10 years saving or do what I can now. I am just getting massively discouraged with so many seeming like if I don’t have a proper view of the falls or the fish at my feet it just wouldn’t be worth it at all for the huge amount of work I’m now taking on. As you said before an experience that it will “fall way short” in the end. Especially when I really just wanted to know how to regrade the retaining walls safely with enough support to allow for a bog/pool up top (original post) while not loosing support for the patio. And thank you for some guidance in that area.

I appreciate all the recommendations on waterfall placement, but also feel that can be a phase 2-to-infinity addition. I have absolutely considered cutting into the patio, I’d love that. Waterfall extension with an additional pump is simple enough. Getting it structurally supported right is needed now and I do want Koi and a pond again. As always, I appreciate all the insight and discussion though! This forum has help infinite amounts.

I do at least plan on a multi bubble rock area on the patio that visually (if not actually) integrates into the bog later. But again, later.