Short term 10 min salt bath for use with koi

Discussion in 'Illness and Disease' started by Dave 54, Sep 18, 2014.

  1. Dave 54

    Dave 54

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    Koi are a fresh water species that means you should not add salt to your ponds , we believe it bad practice to do so but if your koi need salting what should you do yopu cant use it in the pond as it would take more than a few water changes to rid yourself of it so here's what you should do
    From time to time we may well find it prudent to resort to salt to treat our koi with, so as such your going to have to know how to salt bathe your koi safe in the knowledge your not harming your koi by doing this .
    So we'll need a large suitable container to do this , we use our koi messuring/benching bowl to do this plus a spare with water in it .
    Next weigh out the salt and add it to the container a normal dose rate for a short term bath works out to be 3,8 oz, then add the water to your messuring/benching bowl mixing it thuroughly until all of the salt has disolved .
    Next its a good idea to add an airstone to both bowls the reason we use the second bowl will become obvious in a minute .
    Place the bowl in the shade as it helps calm the koi you the gently catch your koi and place directly into the bowl its a good idea to cober the bowl when the koi is in the bowl as this will also help calm it.
    In our first aid kit we have a timer, we pre set it to 10 minutes then as soon as the koi goes into the water start it , reriodically during the bath check your koi is well
    Now comes in the second bowl of now heavily oxygenated water , this bowl should be made ready.
    it is there should your koi have a bad reaction to the salt solution in the first bowl , i;e leaving it close to hand means its a simple thing to pick your koi and lift it directly to fresh water.
    Once the ten minute alarm sounds on the timer your fishes salt bath is over , so you could if you wish use the bowl to let it recover prior to it going back into the pond or just place the koiback into the pond which way you choose to do things is up to you.
    Last but not least check on your koi every half hour or so for the rest of the day check on your koi to see that all is well .


    Dave
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
    Dave 54, Sep 18, 2014
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  2. Dave 54

    Mucky_Waters

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    Should things not go as well as planned with Dave's koi salt bath, here is a link that may be useful. :rolleyes:
     
    Mucky_Waters, Sep 18, 2014
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  3. Dave 54

    morewater President, Raccoon Haters International

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    Alternately,

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    morewater, Sep 18, 2014
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  4. Dave 54

    koiguy1969 GIGGETY-GIGGETY!!

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    the salt debate is ongoing. my take is as follows.
    the amount of salt added to a pond doesn't come remotely close to qualifying as saltwater. (ocean water is 3.5% average, or 35 times the salinity @.1%) .1% encourages a healthy slime coat. which aids in parasite protection. altho it is said that some parasites may build a salt tolerance. averts nitrite absorbtion into your fishes bloodstream, so nitrite poisoning is far less likely. especially if you have nitrite issues in your pond. salt helps replenish electrolites and trace minerals as well. not to mention it makes osmotic function in gills easier, reducing stress..... I use salt in my ponds. @ .1%-.15% outside, & .2%-.25% in my basement pond which sees hundreds of fish every year. I hatchout 1000s of fry in my hatchery ponds with a .1% salinity.. all natural freshwater bodies contain some salinity.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
    koiguy1969, Sep 18, 2014
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  5. Dave 54

    Dave 54

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    Philastines the both of you :LOL: oh you guys just crack me up now all we need is John to pop in :ROFLMAO::D:):LOL::happy:
    Aparently its an aquired taste it is very boney and easrth to taste :p


    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 18, 2014
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  6. Dave 54

    Dave 54

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    I agree KoiGuy there are those who believe in salt like your goodself and others who dont such as ourselves , in a well maintained and looked after pond there should be no need to see high nitrite levels thus no build up of nitrite in the koi's blood stream .
    We also dont want to see parasites with a high tolerance to salt , salt can also complicate treatments,
    It also over time builds up in the pond hence the need of repeated water changes to remove it , the debate will rumble on :)

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 18, 2014
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  7. Dave 54

    koiguy1969 GIGGETY-GIGGETY!!

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    altho evaporation doesn't remove salt, water changes do.. I replace the salt removed at waterchanges. I have never had to treat a fish for any disease or parasite. maybe the salt has something to do with that. I did treat a doitsu koi that jumped out of a net as I brought him to the surface, and got himself wedged between the rough basement wall and the plywood my filter sits on. took a quarter sized chunk out his side. I treated him with .1% salted water and a medicated food with '5 positive and negative gram antibiotics', but, like him. I would do it in a hospital tank, not the pond. so there just wouldn't be salt in the hospital tank. and I have never had nitrite, or ammonia issues myself.
    question... others have said "salt interferes with some meds"...which ones? I would like to have that info. but, I have never had anyone answer that.
     
    koiguy1969, Sep 18, 2014
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  8. Dave 54

    Dave 54

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    Acording to my treatments chart made for Val and I "specifically for our pond only", by former koi dealership friends Stu and Mel of the now defunct Hananumi koi in Yeovil Sommerset
    They took each persons pond its gallonage filtration flow rates etc and made up a treaments chart for each individual member in our club it states that Malchite Green will become toxic to koi at a Ph of 8 or above with salt in the system
    They where our clubs chosen dealership for many years until ill health forced Stu (who had once broken his back, which was repaired using metal rods ), to close the dealership down 5 years ago now, "otherwise I think our club would still be using them to this day".
    It was from them who we bought their former QT pond we trust their word explicity as do 50 other families and as such have no reason to doubt their claim.
    Interestingly no-one ever had any problems with any of their fish and everyone who knew them found them open and honest.
    However KoiGuy I'd like to draw your attention to our friend Syd Michell aka Manky Sanke who weve coresponded on and off with for the past 27 years now,and have a look on Syds take on salt ,
    Syd is considered the water expert for the BKKS, K.O.I. and the koi Carp magazine plus his own koi club in Essex :-

    http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/koi_health.html

    I think you'll find what Syd has to say about salt interesting reading and it may make you change your mind about using salt especially about the build up of it in ponds over time "even with water changes", it certainly changed our use of it to short term baths only .



    Dave
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
    Dave 54, Sep 19, 2014
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  9. Dave 54

    koiguy1969 GIGGETY-GIGGETY!!

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    read it....nope it hasn't changed my mind. look I've been salting since 2007. I do water changes of 50 gals every 2 or 3 days. if salt built up in the water . my salinity would increase with my water changes, .not stay the same, as it does, because I salt my water change water. its true salt doesn't evaporate, but it is removed equally with water changes. salinity is uniform thru out the water volume.. so removing 50 gals doesn't change the salinity up or down. but replacing it with unsalted water always makes it go down. I know this because I have done waterchanges when I was out of salt. I salt my basement pond at 2 cups per 100 gals. so I add 1 cup to every 50 gal change. I add the salt with the dechlorinator as I fill the barrel. if I test the water in the barrel and the water in the pond they are the same. as far as meds go...you mentioned malachite green...my ph is a steady 7.6 so salt in a 8.0 & up ph isn't a concern. you're the only person who could even name one med that may be effected, and I don't know that to be fact. saying that's true as long as my ph isn't over 8, no worries, right? I respect your opinion, and its worked for you. but like I said, I salt and in all the time I've been ponding, I have never had to treat a sick fish or for parasites.
     
    koiguy1969, Sep 19, 2014
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  10. Dave 54

    Dave 54

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    True your Ph is lower than the Ph of 8.0 but it can go up and down as we all well know , if your Like me you dont test every day , I test on a weekly basis but,mistakes are very easy to make I've done it myself as have many other folk its an easy thing to do my friend.
    But a good fish keeper uses those mistakes though they are few to refocus on the hobby and recognises that we are human and we do make mistakes
    I also repect your opinion on koi matters too KoiGuy so the feeling is mutual, you also have an active and successful breeding program which is something I'd love to do ,
    You can be sure I'd be picking your Brains over it once a get the 550 gallon QT facility up and running , as you said originally the are two camps in the fish world those who swear by using salt and those who dont but what joins us all in both camps is our love of koi and other fish

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 19, 2014
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  11. Dave 54

    koiguy1969 GIGGETY-GIGGETY!!

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    I don't post to argue with anyone..i post to help, and learn. if I am wrong, I wanna know. but I like something to back it up. cuz my experience tells me I'm doing it right, at least for the most part. " that's what I've heard" and "that's what I read" isn't good enough for me. like the salt messing with meds thing.... I've had many people tell me that. but when I ask wich meds it messes with they are dumbfounded and don't know. you are the first to have any kind of answer. theyre positive its true but haven't any idea why, or what meds, under what conditions. you see that's why I don't take anyones word as gospel truth.
     
    koiguy1969, Sep 19, 2014
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  12. Dave 54

    dieselplower

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    Hey Dave can you clear this part up a bit? So you use 3.8 oz but in what size container? I would be a huge difference in salt concentration if the container was 16 ounces or a gallon etc....
     
    dieselplower, Sep 19, 2014
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  13. Dave 54

    Dave 54

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    True koi guy its the same here I've come across more than a few so called experts , something I never claim to be, well read yes, with 27 years under my belt but always willing to learn because in our hobby we never stop learning true ...?
    Having become friendly with a number of the true experts in that time, I've found them great people willing to share their knowledge which I try to pass on to others
    Speaking of salt resiliance I recall in the Good Doctor Erik Johnson DVM'S book, there are a good few pages about salt, and the fact they have found that costia has been found to be growing resistent to salt
    On a differnt note.... a more worrying one, "antibiotics".
    I dont like using it only having to resort to it three times in the last 27 years but I've heard of koi growing a resistance to those too , it makes you wonder just how much its used in the koi supply train from breeder to dealer to us, doesnt it ?

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 19, 2014
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  14. Dave 54

    Dave 54

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    The article I read about it in only states that you must use a suitible sized bowl at a 2.4% solution at 3.8oz of salt per gallon considering many koi are quite large a sutible bowl would be that of a beching bowl if you have one or a large plastic container if you dont but allow for plenty of room
    You would put into it enough water to comfortably cover the koi so which would take quite a few gallons to half fill as to the US imperial conversion your going to have to work that out yourself I'm affraid mate math isnt my forte

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 20, 2014
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