Should I install a bottom filter?

[bthis]

My 1000-gallon EPDM lined pond is entirely shaded by huge pecan trees that drop flowers in the spring, leaves all summer and fall, and the occasional branch. I plan to install a skimmer and was going to also install a bottom drain. Because of the volume I was thinking about a 3" Koi Toilet I or similar model.
But the pond expert at the local Koi shop recommends no bottom drain--only a skimmer. Bottom drains don't really remove large waste, he says, they only remove koi waste and circulate water from deep ponds to improve aeration.
Does anyone have experience with ponds 'blessed' by lots of trees? Do bottom drains help this type of cleanup? If so, what's the best model? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[bthis]

Forgot to mention: I will use my current Fish Mate 2500 pump in the skimmer until I can afford to convert to an external pump. I plan to run the line from the BD to the skimmer, then to my bio-filter and waterfall. My existing plumbing is 3" from the Fish Mate to the filter setup then to the waterfall. My pond is a triangular oval about 12' long by about 8' wide at the widest point, deepest point about 3 feet deep.
Thanks for help and suggestions.

 

[addy1]

My 1000-gallon EPDM lined pond is entirely shaded by huge pecan trees that drop flowers in the spring, leaves all summer and fall, and the occasional branch. I plan to install a skimmer and was going to also install a bottom drain. Because of the volume I was thinking about a 3" Koi Toilet I or similar model.
But the pond expert at the local Koi shop recommends no bottom drain--only a skimmer. Bottom drains don't really remove large waste, he says, they only remove koi waste and circulate water from deep ponds to improve aeration.
Does anyone have experience with ponds 'blessed' by lots of trees? Do bottom drains help this type of cleanup? If so, what's the best model? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks!

A bottom drain will help even if it does not get all the large debris. You may want to put netting over it when it is dropping the flower load. A good skimmer would greatly help, get the stuff before it sinks, maybe even two skimmers.

 

[DrCase]

The skimmer would help you when your not around and keep trash from sinking
A leaf net is all you need for the bottom
If you can run your pump about a 1 ft off the bot opposite your water fall it should stay clean

 

[koikeepr]

I live in a heavily treed area and could not survive without my BD for sure. Though netting is fine, I would turn around after spending 15 minutes netting and things would look as if I did nothing. Something is always flying in the wind in my area.

If you've already got a pond, then you need to look into a retro bottom drain (AquaArt makes a good one that is plumbed form the side and not the top). I had this on my old pond, and it worked great. On my new pond I have a skimmer and true BD. I initially was not going to put in a skimmer, but boy amd I happy I did. The top surface of my water is always clean now, where I constantly had a haze from pollen falling, etc. The leaves end up in the basket and not on my pond floor.

This is just my perspective, but it has been worth it in my situation with heavy trees.

 

[bthis]

Wow, thank you all for your help! After a recent Heron incident reduced my fish load to minimum, it's a good time to install the skimmer and at the same time I'm willing to lift the liner to put in a true through-the-liner bottom drain rather than a retro-fit.

What else do I need to consider? Is one bottom drain design more effective than others? The units with a central pole seem like they'd be better than three posts around the edge which could block the flow. And rounded, smooth-bottomed drains seem like they would move the waste out better than other designs--true?

If I'm going to use the 2400 GPH Fish Mate in the skimmer (and therefore for the bottom drain at the same time), will there be enough suction for a 4-inch drain or would I be better with a 3-inch drain because of the flow rate?

Same with the plumbing: is 3 inch pipe better than 4 inch with a 2400-gph pump drawing from the skimmer and the BD? Or should I install a 4-inch line from the BD for when I finally convert to a higher capacity external pump? Thank you again for your help. I'm getting excited about finally finishing my pond (...until I see the next "necessary" upgrade)

 

[addy1]

Aquatic Eco-systems has a bottom drain that the professional pond guy taking care of my pond in arizona recommends. d3 bottom drain, I would send a link, but their web site is not loading this am.

 

[cauzeneffeckt]

you could also have a DIY bottom drain, google that exact phrase and you will get tons of options

 

[koikeepr]

The pole in the middle is an air pipe. There are still usually three little legs to hold up the dome.

A 4" drain is way too large for 1000g pond and you will have lots of draw down. You should have no bigger than a 3 drain for a pond of this size. Koi toilets are great, but they don't make a 3" aerated version. In fact, no one makes a 3" aerated version--that's why folks take a koi toilet and modify it.

Squidhead here on this site just made a 3" aerated drain for his pond, I'm sure he'd be willing to make you one for a price. You should PM him.

 

[DoDad]

I think they are overpriced.

Aquatic Eco-systems has a bottom drain that the professional pond guy taking care of my pond in arizona recommends. d3 bottom drain, I would send a link, but their web site is not loading this am.

 

[bthis]

The pole in the middle is an air pipe. There are still usually three little legs to hold up the dome.

A 4" drain is way too large for 1000g pond and you will have lots of draw down. You should have no bigger than a 3 drain for a pond of this size. Koi toilets are great, but they don't make a 3" aerated version. In fact, no one makes a 3" aerated version--that's why folks take a koi toilet and modify it.
.

I'm not sure what you mean by drawdown. But I get that I need a 3-inch maximum bottom drain. Now I'm wondering about connecting it to the skimmer. Can I plumb it in so the flow from the drain gets filtered before it gets to the pump? The designs I see online, and what I recall from the pond store, don't seem to have much room to put a bulkhead and gate valve that would flow into the leaf basket or filter pad. Most drawings seem to indicate the bulkhead goes near the bottom of the skimmer, which would be below the leaf basket. Is that a problem?

PS~Koikeepr, that is a beautifully impressive pond you built--Wow! Thanks for documenting the process so well. I'd love to see a diagram of your spaghetti plumbing!

 

[koikeepr]

Let's say you have a bath tub that you are filling, and then you pull the plug on the tub. If the water coming into the tub isn't as fast as the water that's exiting, you notice that swirly suck down of water. You will also notice that the waterline you want is lower.That's a very simplistic explanation of draw down.

So, if you have a very large BD with a wide pipe, you have to be able to make sure that water is coming into the pond just as fast as it is exiting the pond, otherwise you will notice that you water line will constantly be pulled down. A 4" pipe can move A LOT of water very quickly. In a 1000g pond, this will make managing your water flow and exit tough to manage so that every component keeps up with the next.

You don't need to connect a BD to a skimmer, as it's sort of redundant. Skimmed water is already cleaned, so why would you need it to also go into the BD? It's best to keep these two separate, and just tie the skimmer into the line behind the BD so they meet into a single line after.

Yes, you re-replumb the skimmer to take water in from the bottom. I have the savio skimmer, and I just put a hole in the bottom below the basket to receive water.

 

[bthis]

You don't need to connect a BD to a skimmer, as it's sort of redundant. Skimmed water is already cleaned, so why would you need it to also go into the BD? It's best to keep these two separate, and just tie the skimmer into the line behind the BD so they meet into a single line after.

Yes, you re-replumb the skimmer to take water in from the bottom. I have the savio skimmer, and I just put a hole in the bottom below the basket to receive water.

I guess I'm a little slow, or didn't explain my confusion. Water comes into the skimmer, through the leaf basket and a filter pad, so it's fairly clean before it gets to the submersible pump in the skimmer. Water from the bottom drain also comes into the skimmer carrying leaves and pecan flowers that sank in the pond and were sucked into the bottom drain. If the BD feeds into the skimmer through a hole below the basket, won't these leaves and flowers clog the pump?

 

[koikeepr]

Your bottom drain should be feeding into a barrel filter (or preferably a settlement chamber), and then the crud is separated from it. You pump is after, so the water is still clean when it hits your pump.

 

[DrCase]

A 4" drain is way too large for 1000g pond and you will have lots of draw down. You should have no bigger than a 3 drain for a pond of this size.

What ever size pipe .Can a bottom drain really move more water than the pump that's pulling it