Who handles pond construction?

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I don't know what you mean by SBC?

Sorry, Surface Bonding Cement such as Quikwall by Quikrete.

"allow the concrete to set up for 6 months".

I figured if I could get the pour done in February there wasn't much point in filling the pond right away. Why not let it settle for the time and deal with any cracks before I line it? I am currently thinking polyurea although I am open to suggestions regarding its durability, cost, etc.

This forum has more of a Water Garden focus. Koiphen is more of a Koi forum and there are many examples of the type of pond you want. There are several builders there who post often.

Thanks, I just activated my Koiphen account last night. Is it OK to keep posting here as well? The pond we are going for is sort of in-between. We may end up keeping one or two Koi in it (after we're comfortable that they won't become raccoon food) but it will be goldfish only at first. I'm using the term "Goldfish+" or "Koi-light".

Thanks again for all your help.
 

sissy

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That koi club seems to be for pro's that raise really fancy koi and I belong and they give info now and then that helps but there seems to be few people who really post anything I need .I have koi .but the are just everyday koi not the fancy high dollar ones they talk about .Not sure what kind of koi you are going to get .Seems they don't get many posts on there that help you with your pond ,they just talk fish .That is if there is anyone to post .There are a lot koi forums out there but they don't seem to get many postings or give much help if you have a problem .Not harm in joining I just say you will find more help here .
 

j.w

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I am a member at koiphen also but found it hard to keep up w/ all the posts. They have sooooooooooooooo many members and I am the type that thinks I must read every new post that anybody posts so I don't miss anything,lol. Was totally impossible there and drove me crazy so stopped posting. I know it's just my problem, OCD or something. They do have some very informative and nice people there that know a lot about building ponds and raising koi. If you find the right people there to ask there they would I'm sure be happy to answer any questions you have. If I were you w/ what you need to find out I would definitely go there and search for help. I don't have a need to find out an answer to a complicated problem and I just like it here better......easier to get to know people and here we can talk about most anything. I need to just focus on just one forum and I choose this one to live in,lol!
 
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Sorry, Surface Bonding Cement such as Quikwall by Quikrete.
For free standing walls sure. For the kind of stress a pond sees this would be a complete waste of time.

I figured if I could get the pour done in February there wasn't much point in filling the pond right away. Why not let it settle for the time and deal with any cracks before I line it?
I think I understand now, you're thinking the concrete is just a structure, not meant to be water tight. To me there's 2 basic ways to build a pond, or swimming pool for that matter. First is a structure, even if just a hole in the ground, with a rubber liner. Same for inground vinyl pools. The structure can bend, crack, move, etc. with no impact on the liner's ability to hold water. The structure just has to be strong enough to not completely fail. Second, a cement pool or pond is a different deal, they're built to never crack, ever. They only crack when poorly built. Today this is mostly the sprayed concrete (gunite) but some do still do pour type builds with forms which is what you're thinking of doing.

Normally a cement pool/pond requires a couple of coats of material bonded to previous layers. Letting the structure sit for months adds dirt which reduces bonding or requires a lot of cleaning. Just adds risks. Some products also require a new surface for bonding. There are ways to create a "new" surface again, but more work, more risk. With no up side.

I am currently thinking polyurea although I am open to suggestions regarding its durability, cost, etc.
I've never used it but it seems like a great product. There is one thing you have to be careful about. Most people read it stretches 500% and think that will deal with cracks. But that isn't as good as it sounds. The product adheres to the concrete. A crack starts almost infinitely small and gets wider. Because the polyurea is adhered to either side of the crack only a thin bit of polyurea actually stretches. So even a 1/16" crack could exceed the 500%. Great for hair line cracks. And that's why the concrete structure is built the same whether polyurea or a plaster finish.

A liner is much different. Not attached the underlining structure can crack, move and deform a lot and the liner will still function.

Is it OK to keep posting here as well?
Absolutely. It would be a very cool pond build to see and I'm sure would be very popular. I just wanted to point to you a resource.

The pond we are going for is sort of in-between.
That is the main rub I think. If you're building a Water Garden there are lots of people here with that experience. If you're building a Koi pond there are lots of people on Koiphen that can help. The inbetween is tougher because so few people do this. Even mentioning Goldfish in Koiphen can sometimes get some not so funny ribbing. Both camps will assume you're building their kind of pond and the advice can then be all over the place.

However, this type of pond is very common in the far east and they do have English forums. It's a little tricky because they have different product names and building methods.

I don't know if you're at all concerned with resale value but an inbetween pond can have issues. If you're going to spend $20-30K I think it'd be worth the extra $10k and build a proper Koi pond. It would be more attractive to buyers looking for a Koi pond. And if you get the bug and later want more Koi you won't have to rip out and rebuild. Or just build a Water Garden which is perfect for Goldfish and a few Koi. Way less stress and a lot less money. You can still spend a lot on finishes, lighting, and plants.
 
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Am puzzled, by the diagram. What materials could do the shuttering for those irregular convoluted freeform curves some 4', 5' high?

I could imagine a bricklayer could use standard bricks to make such shapes

Regards, andy
 
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I glue thin Luan in the desired shape. Basically making my own curved plywood forms. But I also use concrete block inside the form which takes most of the pressure off the form and the wall can be built in layers. But only good for liner applications, not strong enough for concrete ponds.

Outside of the US I do see a lot of ponds being built with brick.
 
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[sup]While it might be possible to do elegant curvey vertical walls easy with a 3d software, to intersect and join them, to make a forme for a so many intersecting curved concrete cast shapes does present an obstacle I would have thought.[/sup]

[sup]Would it not be be realistic to use concrete blocks to make the structure and have the internal surfaces rendered smooth with concrete by someone with plastering skills, or to apply shuttering with flexible plywood to achieve the curved surface...[/sup]

[sup]Regards, andy[/sup]
 
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Would it not be be realistic to use concrete blocks to make the structure and have the internal surfaces rendered smooth with concrete by someone with plastering skills, or to apply shuttering with flexible plywood to achieve the curved surface...

That was my suggestion too, but only if a liner is used.
 
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Hah, looks like there is flexible modular polystyrene forme shapes which make casting curved walls of concrete doable

Regards, andy
 

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Soooo, it looks like it is going to be DIY all the way,

I've been through the local Pool Builders (all 3 of them) and no luck. Two are only interested in Shotcrete methods, which I feel the results can be to variable based on the nozzle operator's experience. I did find a national, roving Koi builder who was very helpful but his price was just way out of my league.

I have decided to go with a mud-slab style concrete floor with rebar extending up into a drystack CMU wall with bar vertically and horizontally, core pours and follow it all up with QuikWall Surface Bonding Cement mixed with Xypex additive.

I've heard from a couple of Pond guys locally to ONLY GO WITH A LINER!. Our freeze/thaw cycle is just to much for Polyurea/Xypex. Superstition perpetuated by shoddy concrete work is my personal suspicion.

If the Xypex fails, I can always fall back on a liner.


A couple of missing pieces in my construction knowledge.

1) How do I ensure my rebar coming up from the slab is going to fall within the cells of my first course. I'm thinking I'll spray paint the perimeter of the slab and then the centerline of the wall and measuring the OC spacing as I set the bars

2) How do I turn the gentle corners with CMU (Concrete Masonry Units or "Cinder Block" for the uninitiated ;) ) I'm thinking solid block, cut to fit, drilled top and bottom for rebar pins (epoxied in) and grooved with a grinder for the horizontal rebar (epoxied again).

p.s Is there any interest in a SketchUp "how to" thread? I love playing with it (SketchUp :wink:) and would be happy to start a running post on how it works. Yesterday I found a cool trick that allowed my to calculate my pond volume, surface area etc, etc in only a few clicks.
 
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What was the quote from the roving Koi builder?

If the Xypex fails, I can always fall back on a liner.
Very true.

1) How do I ensure my rebar coming up from the slab is going to fall within the cells of my first course.
Spray paint can get covered by mud, I stick nails out the form sides (out, not up). Adding rebar to wet concrete is tricky. Short window when the concrete as set enough but not too much. Much easier to drill holes for the vertical rebar after the slab as set and use anchor cement to fix in place. You can drill holes as you lay each first course block. Verticals are only keeping the walls from pushing out so it doesn't take much. It can always be a fall back position if you can into trouble.

2) How do I turn the gentle corners with CMU (Concrete Masonry Units or "Cinder Block" for the uninitiated ;) ) I'm thinking solid block, cut to fit, drilled top and bottom for rebar pins (epoxied in) and grooved with a grinder for the horizontal rebar (epoxied again).
I think solid block would be a really bad idea. Might be OK when using a liner, but with Xypex you need a structure that will not move even a little, a monolithic structure. I assume Xypex would spec a solid pour as a requirement when used for swimming pools, reservoirs, etc. I'd be surprised if they allow CMU for this type of application and solid block would be even weaker. But if you're wanting to set your own standard I'd at least epoxied together the block surfaces in addition to the rebar.

I already said my piece on forming curved walls. Forming curves with block would be no where close enough for being a strong enough base for Xypex. There are lots of ways when using liner, but that doesn't help here unfortunately.

I'd be interested in any SketchUp info. I've been writing a CAD app the past year which will compete with SketchUp so I'm interested in all your expereinces.
 

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