Aeration for winter question

[Meyer Jordan]

Well last fall I have been talking about this bacteria concern in very cold water and no one said yes they will live until reading again this fall.

Your concern is understandable.
When a certain belief has been handed down and repeated for many years, the initial tendency is to accept this belief as fact. After all, can that many people, some of whom are considered experts, be wrong? The Earth is really flat, isn't it?
Sadly, the dissemination of factual data in the Pond world has not kept up with scientific research. In some cases, those in the Pond world are 10 to 20 years behind the scientific community, still embracing ideas that have long been proven false.
Much of what is currently held as 'the facts' by the Pond community concerning the Nitrogen cycle has been altered by scientific research on this subject. The effects of low temperatures on nitrification rates is only one of these areas.
This one article (http://www.lagoonsonline.com/ripple3.htm) completely dispels any doubt that nitrification occurs at low temperatures.

 

[waynefrcan]

Yes partly my fault as I haven't spent a lot of time at pond forums researching. I will try and stay in the loop more.

Another area where so much money is spent and where most of us have no clue is on fish medicines. The retail companies claim this and that and almost never does the fish survive.

Another one is rocked ponds or bare liner. The pond builders are behind on this as well where most in my area say go rocked.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Yes partly my fault as I haven't spent a lot of time at pond forums researching. I will try and stay in the loop more.

At the risk of sounding self-defeating, pond forums are where the old beliefs are kept alive.
Research should be initiated from a scientific query, not as a hobbyist.
My research is mainly done through Google Scholar and Microsoft Academic Search. If I do research on the internet, I immediately discount those sites that are obviously commercial or forum based. Governmental sites can be a good source of current data also.
The main problem with fish medications is not the medications themselves but the misdiagnosis of the illness. There is a severe shortage of people that are truly qualified to diagnose any fish health issue. As a result, most hobbyist have to rely on those that are about as qualified to determine the causes of fish medical issues as a plumber is in diagnosing chest pains.
And, of course, the never ending debate on R & G versus bare liner will remain live and well until the Pond community catches up to science.

 

[cas]

pond forums are where the old beliefs are kept alive.

So nice that links to articles are provided so we can become more informed. I have learned a lot the last couple of months.

 

[waynefrcan]

Not sure I agree.

At the risk of sounding self-defeating, pond forums are where the old beliefs are kept alive.
Research should be initiated from a scientific query, not as a hobbyist.
My research is mainly done through Google Scholar and Microsoft Academic Search. If I do research on the internet, I immediately discount those sites that are obviously commercial or forum based. Governmental sites can be a good source of current data also.
The main problem with fish medications is not the medications themselves but the misdiagnosis of the illness. There is a severe shortage of people that are truly qualified to diagnose any fish health issue. As a result, most hobbyist have to rely on those that are about as qualified to determine the causes of fish medical issues as a plumber is in diagnosing chest pains.
And, of course, the never ending debate on R & G versus bare liner will remain live and well until the Pond community catches up to science.

The old beliefs are with the big pond building and supply companies. The forums are always updating.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

All of the pond forums that I am familiar with (quite a few), the same old questions are asked and the vast majority of the answers are the same old answers.I grant you that there are those forum members that try to 'debunk' these old hard-held beliefs, but they are outnumbered and the original question poser, like what happens in many other instances, chooses to go with the majority furthering the life of the out-dated beliefs.
The fact that many of my fellow Water Feature contractors, some of whom are well known, continue to support these old beliefs only exacerbates the problem.

 

[EricV]

Maybe you are right Meyer, but I'm not sure I agree. As mostly a lurker here, I think I've developed a good idea of whose opinions are worth more irrespective of a majority. It may also be my own confirmation bias, though.

 

[Dave 54]

Without wishing to upset you Meyer but I'm an amature I have a good track record on fish health issues I've had two exeptional mentors one formally head of the AKCA health forum and his British counterpart who just happens to be a Plymouth and District Koi Keepers Society Member .
I'm in regular contact email wise with Spike and I see Brian at our section meetings , if I'm unsure about something I ask .
One does not need to be a scientist though I'm looking forwards to you emailing me with some of the scientific papers you promised.
I base things on good sound observations and knowing what you are looking for if I'm unsure I check, as such that may come in the form of my mentors or I will retire to our private reference library collected over the last 29 years of our hobby .
I rarely call Brian out and he likes it that way and when i do it is for something I've never encountered before like this years lightening Strike on the pond
As I said to you yesterday I feel that should I exam up it will spoil the enjoyment of the hobby , which I dont want to .
There are different disaplines in our hobby ponders do things slightly different fo koi keepers as your ideas are slightly from others preferaing the most natural pond over the more mechanical that I have.
Koi keepers have medical officers should you choose not to go down the fish health route where as the ponders especially here in the FBAS do not .
We all share a common enjoyment and common iterest which ever way we look at things and I do no ever claim to be an expert just well read in fish health issues .

DAve

 

[waynefrcan]

Nope, not good lol. SAme ol thing as last winter. After 2 weeks ammonia is at 4ppm. Bio & filtration has done nothing so far. 2/3 pond water and all pond bio media used in the tubs, temps at 42F. Pond water was at 0 nitrate, nitrite, .5ppm ammonia.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Nope, not good lol. SAme ol thing as last winter. After 2 weeks ammonia is at 4ppm. Bio & filtration has done nothing so far. 2/3 pond water and all pond bio media used in the tubs, temps at 42F. Pond water was at 0 nitrate, nitrite, .5ppm ammonia.

Explain further.

 

[waynefrcan]

That's it really. Will do another check end of the month.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

That's it really. Will do another check end of the month.

I re-read this thread and could not find the answer.....what is the fish load in each tank?

 

[waynefrcan]

250 gal tub has 7 koi and 3 golds 6-10" long.
100 gal tub has 3 koi at 8" and 8 golds 4-6" long.
75 gal tub has 1 koi 8" and13 golds 3-4" long.
THks

 

[Meyer Jordan]

250 gal tub has 7 koi and 3 golds 6-10" long.
100 gal tub has 3 koi at 8" and 8 golds 4-6" long.
75 gal tub has 1 koi 8" and13 golds 3-4" long.
THks

And therein lies the answer to your problem. You may have sufficient biofiltration for the size tanks that you are using, but level of biofiltration should be determined by fish load. Your fish are at a greater density in these tanks than intensive aquaculture. In addition, I would venture to guess that the water in these tanks is not being turned over at a rate of 1.5 -2 times per hour. Without sufficient biofiltration based on fish load along with proper flow rate an Ammonia/Nitrite toxicity problem will develop.

 

[waynefrcan]

The canister filters have much more flow rate then 2 times. But I now will believe my original thoughts and others opinions that in reduced temps of 40F there is just not enough good bacteria active to do anything. I have ran indoors aquariums with heavy fish load and they still cycle.

We are talking 0 bio filtration if the ammonia goes from almost 0 to 4 ppm in just 2 weeks.

Maybe some hope with the filtration, but I doubt it. I'll check again end of November.