Aerator and bottom heater?

[waynefrcan]

Yes I did read that before about your setup. I also still not comfortable with solid ice cover all winter. For some reason I need to see water to make me feel better.

O2 probe, aren't they like $400-800? I'm not dishing that out, but would be great to know whats happening. WE have the water temps figured out at least.

The question I still have is will the pond stratify with a surface water/fountain pump and heater? Aeration air pumps at any level keeps the pond 32.5.

Next winter I will have the water pump started first to see what that does to bottom temps.

 

[crsublette]

Gonna have fun here. :twisted: We can all be part of the "yes" crowd or there can actually be someone who wants to read the otherside of the story.

Ya, the K & H is a beauty design. Nowhere in instructions or the box does it say will burn out if not placed in water, so it was a good risk.

Ok, Mr. "out of context". I was talking specificly about bucket heaters, which remain steady at a level. Do ya really think your submersible pond heater element would have burned out within 20 minutes?? ice melts, the element is once again expose to the water, unlike bucket heaters which remain steady at a level.

My cattle heater has the element exposed, and I keep it where the water moves fast, that way the fish don't "hang out" at the heater. Watch to make sure fish are not "hanging out" around heater as the "hot and cold" temperatures can make fish sick. If you see fish around the heater, move the heater close to the bubbler, where it should be.

Fish are often found fighting the water current in streamflow pond designs where there is a straight current of 20,000+ gph . I doubt the "tremendously fast" moving water from a bubbler would keep the fish away.

Mitch, about that foam insulation, I would not recommend covering pond at all, not natural and can cause mold and fungus to grow in the pond in the dark. Many years ago I did cover my pond with a home made "green house". The problem with the plastic, was that it filters out the sun's strongest spectrum of light, and mold can grow, as that happened to me, and this is a common problem with plastic greenhouses. Come spring, the mold was everywhere, on the liner, on the fish, and I was horrified.

Yet, the good folk over at koiphen, talking about pond covers, NOT A SINGLE MENTION of mold nor fungus after using the covers for many years. Hmmm, how can this be?? My guess is that the organic load in their ponds are controlled and fungus is often a result of a high organic load present in the pond and water column.

Listen to the lady Mitch, she has 20 years hands on experience. And puppy chow has tons of vitimins for Koi , it grows real good fish muscles.

Yet of course, all of this mentioned in this post and talk of proper fish food is flat out ignored, shoulders shrugged at by the "open mind" crowd.

There was never a chance of my using some rigid foam, it's just what I heard from a grumpy husband on one of the Hort Society tours.

Theory behind it is no diferent than thick mulch used in gardens.

YEs nice yummy O2 to the water, and helps keep a hole open over winter. But we also need a heater here. Now Many in cold climates say you don't need a hole open, just aeration as gas exchange still occurs.

Then read Wayne's post#195. Hmm... something doesn't add up. Use a properlly watted floating heater that matches your climate zone. Water simply has to be melted less than a inch around the floating heater to avoid the gas exchange danger. The bubbles eventually find the exit. Floating 1500watt pond heaters will maintain this even when temp is at -20*F (-29*C); if you add a small water fountain below it moving water, then I bet it could handle even lower temps.

I have 4 airstones going full blast and the pond's been completely frozen over for a couple weeks now. We haven't even got to the cold part of winter yet.
I'm going to get one of those dissolved O2 probes that I mentioned somewhere so I know what I'm dealing with. I won't shut off the airstones until I have a hole in the ice with a heater because once I do, those airlines are going to fill with water and freeze near the surface.

Interesting how there are article author's that will still say that this can be avoided by simply just using an aerator. hmmm, but of course they're considered "authorative" because they simply wrote an article.

O2 probe, aren't they like $400-800?

Yep, for the good ones. Also, there is the cost of replacement parts and calibration/storage solutions. I am told DO meters are very sensitive and need to be calibrated often.

The question I still have is will the pond stratify with a surface water/fountain pump and heater? Aeration air pumps at any level keeps the pond 32.5.

Next winter I will have the water pump started first to see what that does to bottom temps.

Stratification simply means layering. Wherever the water current doesn't reach, stratification occurs. Water movement disrupts the stratification. Stratification indicates the bottom layers are very slowly being replenished with oxygen; so, these bottom layers will eventually lose oxygen first allowing potentially bad bacteria to form in the organic layers and this lack of oxygen will also force fish to swim closer to where there is oxygen that is to the colder surface water layer. Fish aren't stupid, they know where to go and when to move for more O2.

 

[MitchM]

Wayne, yes that's about the price of a good probe and they do need to be calibrated often. I have many probes for my marine aquarium as well and that's just what probes are.
There's lots of internet marine experts out there too. :lol: I like to have the real numbers so I can judge for myself.

Sorry Charles, was there a question in there for me?

Mulch in gardens is used to minimize evaporation. You won't get much evaporation with an ice cover.
A good snow cover will provide insulation against a hard freeze. What you want to avoid is the ground freezing, cracking open and exposing the roots to dry conditions.
Ideally you want the roots frozen in an ice ball.
Like I said somewhere else, ice will just make it's way under the edges of foam on water and render it useless.

People that say airstones will provide a hole in the ice through a winter should really qualify that statement with their definition of "winter"

 

[crsublette]

Sorry Charles, was there a question in there for me?

Nope, just a statement. I tend to jump from project to project. I spend most of my free time reading. It is interesting how everyone, including me, weight's opinions against particular facts involved in this hobby. The hobby is literally almost like talking politics to the point of where you have the right to express facts at the same level as opinions, that is facts become degraded to simply an intrepretation of results. I can you tell everything evolves in life for a reason and this doesn't mean everything is simply just open for interpretation. I just read too much misinformation passed along by folk who should know better. I enjoy being corrected when the correction is actually expressed quite thoroughly instead of "just because of my results, thats why" silliness. If I can't find a good explanation, then I grasp onto what I can until I read a better persuasion. I really appreciate all of these forums since they have helped me start forming my compass on what to learn more about in this hobby.

Mulch in gardens is used to minimize evaporation. You won't get much evaporation with an ice cover.

I farm for a living. Yep, it helps with evaporation as well. Mulch, or crop residue, also insulates the ground in a good and bad way. The residue increases ground temperature in the transition from Fall to Winter, but it holds cold ground temperature longer in the transition from Winter to Spring, which is more damaging, since it dramatically increases germination duration. Residue also helps to prevent the ground from frost heaving around plant roots and it also makes it tougher to kill bugs if you do not get a hard Winter cold. I deal with this constantly. It is a big deal in farming from conventional tillage management, strip row management, and no-till management and they all have their major pluses and major minuses. However, you'll never be told a bad thing by the folk that are enthusiastic of the particular field management style they choose.

Like I said somewhere else, ice will just make it's way under the edges of foam on water and render it useless.

Sure, if not constructed properly. It's just a theory of mine. Actually, there's recylced rubber mulch folk use in their gardens. It all really depends on how cold ya get and how ya choose to weather the cold.

People that say airstones will provide a hole in the ice through a winter should really qualify that statement with their definition of "winter"

Exactly!!! but very few ever will.


I enjoy paying attention to threads like this since they give me an idea of how Winter is in other regions of the world. Weather's relationship to a region and how it changes everything is an interesting subject to me since it makes such a huge impact on my livelihood.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Weighing the pros and cons of running a heater and/or aerator against other options i elected to forego any specific action at this time. One of my other options was to continue pumping water through my bottom drain and (indoor) settling tank and back out through a return line located at the bottom of the shallow end of my pond. The benefit of this is the open settling tank would function like a hole in the ice "gas exchange" and I could put a small filter in the settling tank to continue filtering the water. The down side is it would cost money to run the pump (although probably less than running a heater), and any time you run something like that there is something to go wrong.
The fact is I think it is unnecessary, for me at this time anyway. My fish load is relatively low right now, and I know that fish can survive in ponds around here without any extra assistance at all. Of course how clean the pond is, and how high a fish load you have will be the determining factors.
If we get a hard freeze this winter and the pond stays frozen for more than a couple months I might drill a little hole through the ice, small enough to slip an air line down there and run a bubbler for while, just to help bring the oxygen level up a bit as a precaution. That's it. I'll let you know how many of my fish are dead in the spring.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Charles, all the people on this form except for me and Wayne and Mitch, are all from more southern locations that receive much more sun than us, Here the fish stay outside under the ice for up to six months and we receive much less daylight hours than everyone else. For instance, Addy receives a extra hour more of sun than me, and an extra hour and a half than Wayne, per day!!! That is huge! Never mind someone from way down south where you are!! HELLO! Wake UP Charles!! The sun sets here (Medicine Hat) just after 4:20 PM these days!!! The sun does not goes down where you live till 6:35pm!!! I have worked in a greenhouse and mold and fungus is a big problem for those houses with plastic roofs, very common here, and the mold and fungus can happen to your pond if the conditions are right (was a long cold winter with heavy snow that year) , as it did happen to me once many years ago. It can be hard to see, and you have to be observant, and yes fish do get fungus, quite common, do your research and you will find there is cures, one of them being the all natural pond peat!!! So if it has never been heard of here, why would they have treatments for it???? And most people here on this forum have very little experience in terms of years, and most live where there is more sun to stop the fungus growth as well! AND most don't have their pond covered in ice for six months either! You can pick up a treatment for fish fungus at most pet stores, but I don't use the chemical treatments as they have bad effects on the natural pond balance!

And about the puppy chow, I am not the only one here in Medicine Hat that feeds puppy chow to their Koi, I got the idea many years ago from a guy that worked at the pet store many years ago, he feeds his koi puppy chow too, and I used to think it was crazy too till tried it. The koi loved it and prefer it to the high quality Koi food, which they only ate as "last resort"! The puppy chow that I feed is made right here in Alberta, no grains or fillers, has farm fresh eggs, chicken, fresh wild whitefish, salmon and botanicals too! It smells very fresh, which is more than I can say about the koi food, which can sit on the self for a long time before anyone buys that high priced food! Then the fish food has had other problems, like worms cause it was so old, food was making "fresh worms" for fish!!

Knock my fish food all you like, but my koi are healthy and do quite well after over 20 years living in the harsh Canadian North!!

 

[callingcolleen1]

Charles, I looked at that site, and most of the people still have green things growing under the cover and green grass, so they are not way up north. I did have a pond cover, to stop most of the leaves, for only a short time covering my top pond this fall, as the net I had was not big enough to cover all three pond. pond cover OK as long as it is not for an extended period of time, with heavy snow and ice, as it just becomes too dark and mold and fungus WILL grow, and my pond is very clean, just a few leaves, you can see to the bottom, and there is not horrid amounts of sudge as it just disapears! This picture you can see right to the bottom, no sludge, you can see the tiny red gravel that fell their many years ago, and I never clean it, it just stays clean, sedges clean like crazy! The water is almost three feet deep there, and you can see the pond shelf.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Mucky water I like the idea of circulating the warm water inside with the outside water, should work pretty good for you, and I think that your winters are much milder than here, so give it a try, see what happens!

 

[Craig58]

To be exact......

Dalhart, TX: Rise: 7:42 Set: 5:35 CST Sunlight time: 9 hrs 53 min
Philly: Rise : 7:04 Set: 4:36 EST Sunlight time: 9 hrs 32 min
Medicine Hat: Rise: 8:01 Set 4:23 MST Sunlight time: 8hrs 22min

Craig

 

[waynefrcan]

Charles did I pee pee in your corn flakes again Colleen's idea tops many others here including you and me so don't feel bad.

I just singled you out to get under your skin a little lol, it worked!!

 

[waynefrcan]

Mitch, we very much alike. WE don't settle for the common idea or theory, we want results for ourselves. Water temps, O2 level etc. By my temps obtained I have alrdy discounted my local experts results or opinions. Our cute fishes matter to us, and we don't want to fish out the corpses in the spring.

Ok I have an idea, we all pitch in $25 each so one of us can buy this O2 meter? 16 people needed, whos in???

Or

Mitch you buy it and charge anyone who wants the info $25.

I'm serious, this is no joke lol

 

[callingcolleen1]

Well OK Charlie, took a guess cause I not find your city online in my cell phone weather network. But you get my point, you still get lots more sun than me and Wayne, and much milder winters. I used to work at this big greenhouse 14 years ago and they had many large greenhouses, some had plastic for a roof, and the main structure had glass. Under the glass we never had problem with mold or fungus, but under the poly we always had to use a funguicde. Was told it was cause of the plastic roof. I also had the same problem the one year in my pond when I made a plastic greenhouse structure over top to help winter. That was the ONLY time I ever got the mold or fungus on my pond,, so I can guess it was cause of the plastic filtering the suns strongest spectum as it never happened again.

Charlie, you do get on my nerves sometimes, but that's OK, cause it's no more than my extra lovely family!! Ha ha It's all good cause we all learn as we go in life. Bet you did not know about Snow Mold either?? We get it here on the grass after a long cold winter with lots if snow, grass starts to mold from being in the dark for too long!

 

[crsublette]

Yep, I'm aware of cold Winters. Hours do help, but if you are only having 2 hours or so of 5*F (-15*C) and then your warm Chinook winds come in able to thaw out the ice. Even though the patterns are different, it is not much different than our Winters here. Now, Winter is still early here so things can get much worse for all of us. Unless your Winters are like Antarctica where it remains many hours and days in the -20*F (-28*F) range and even lower, then the only difference I see from ya'll and me down south are the number of hours of sun. I am more interested in reading how things change for this hobby for folk in cold weather. Only difference is the depth of pond, which the recommended is 4 feet by Nishikigoi Mondo for koi to give the 3 foot koi proper enough room to swim around. The coldest I've lived here was where hi-temps never got above 15*F (-10*C) for an entire week and, with wind child, lows down to around -7*F (-21*C); of course, it only stays there for a few days then our winters warm up.

This isn't a contest. I'm not saying ya don't go through stuff that we don't, but in the context of ponds, it appears the only difference is pond depth and using properly size heaters.

It can be hard to see, and you have to be observant, and yes fish do get fungus, quite common, do your research and you will find there is cures, one of them being the all natural pond peat!!! So if it has never been heard of here, why would they have treatments for it???? And most people here on this forum have very little experience in terms of years, and most live where there is more sun to stop the fungus growth as well! AND most don't have their pond covered in ice for six months either! You can pick up a treatment for fish fungus at most pet stores, but I don't use the chemical treatments as they have bad effects on the natural pond balance!

That's interesting. As ya mention about the hours of sun etc, the fungus problem might only be a problem for folk far up north. Otherwise, I would be reading more of it in ponds if it was so common. Aquariums are a different issue. It's only common whenever there are problems happening in the pond that allow it to occur. I am told the fungus can also be a good fish population control. In ponds, pond peat is pretty close to being a snake oil. I'm not saying it doesn't do anything except the effects of peat is miniscule that it is not worth the money to buy it in retail stores. People buy it for the peace of mind.

Ha ha It's all good cause we all learn as we go in life. Bet you did not know about Snow Mold either?? We get it here on the grass after a long cold winter with lots if snow, grass starts to mold from being in the dark for too long!

That makes me wonder why the same does not cause a fungus problem in ponds under the same conditions. Understandable for it to happen to grass since all it is is organic material just ready for stuff to happen; heh, i've never heard of "dirt so clean you can eat" but then again I also read "water so clear you can drink", which means it's safe .. kind of.

Colleen's idea tops many others here including you and me so don't feel bad.

I just singled you out to get under your skin a little lol, it worked!!

Yes, your love for Colleen is quite apparent , but it doesn't make me feel bad. The spin on everything is just not fair to folk that want to learn stuff. The spin is what really aggravated me when I first started looking for information on this hobby.

I farm for a living. I'm used to not taking showers and having things crawl on and in me.

Charlie, you do get on my nerves sometimes, but that's OK, cause it's no more than my extra lovely family!! Ha ha It's all good cause we all learn as we go in life.

Exactly!!

((and it's Charles btw ))

 

[crsublette]

The fact is I think it is unnecessary, for me at this time anyway. My fish load is relatively low right now, and I know that fish can survive in ponds around here without any extra assistance at all. Of course how clean the pond is, and how high a fish load you have will be the determining factors.
If we get a hard freeze this winter and the pond stays frozen for more than a couple months I might drill a little hole through the ice, small enough to slip an air line down there and run a bubbler for while, just to help bring the oxygen level up a bit as a precaution. That's it. I'll let you know how many of my fish are dead in the spring.

That's what I think as well. BUT I do not buy thousand dollar fish nor do I breed to sell thousand dollar fish. I would probably do things different if it were my livelihood, but it isn't so... I just roll with the punches nature gives me. I'm much more of a casual type of ponder, but I like to learn why things happen as they do and I enjoy the discussion in finding out the details.

For those curious why buy fish so expensive like this, you have to remember that nishikigoi (the koi we use in our ponds) are a mutation of bloodlines. One out of a thousand might have a particular color with a particular pattern or even fish that occur only one in a billion. The patterns and colors in fish change as the fish gets bigger and older. Some patterns completely dissapear and some patterns get stronger and the same with colors. I think these fish are so expensive since they are bred to have the genes to never lose the elaborate patterns nor extremly bright colors or at least they think that is the case.

I use heaters so I can keep my pond pumps running, without letting them become frozen solid and also I think the heaters help me run my stream and fountains all Winter. Only time I turn the fountains off is when I know we are getting some temps below 10*F (-12*C), but I also have a heat trace line I put down my rock fountains so they do not freeze solid.

I bet ya a completely frozen over pond won't hurt the fish and can stay frozen forever until the oxygen depletion starts affecting the fish.

For folk that bring the fish indoors, I have heard it is a common practice for japanese breeders to reduce the water temps to 58*F (14*C) so they can properly put the fish on a fast, and then, after a few weeks, they raise the temps again to around 72~77*F. To some breeders I have read, 58*F was chosen mainly due to the fish's immune system being exactly 50% shutdown, but for whatever reason it is not higher nor lower, I haven't figured this out yet.

 

[crsublette]

Charles, I looked at that site, and most of the people still have green things growing under the cover and green grass, so they are not way up north.

We are talking water here. Water and ice we are fimilar with in ponds doesn't equate to the same temp as the cold winter you experience; it simply is frozen at 32*F (0*F) and keeps the water insulated so it all doesn't freeze solid to ice. Only difference in long winters with little ice is the thickness of the ice. Since ya say your Winters are so terrible, I am suprised the pond is only 3.5 feet deep; I would think it should be at least 4 feet deep or even deeper.

I did have a pond cover, to stop most of the leaves, for only a short time covering my top pond this fall, as the net I had was not big enough to cover all three pond. pond cover OK as long as it is not for an extended period of time, with heavy snow and ice, as it just becomes too dark and mold and fungus WILL grow

Great, at least now ya admit it is not so terrible. I guess the ponds in the hyperlink I shared do not have enough snow covering the pond covers to form the mold and fungus, that must be the reason why not a single one of them have fungus problems in the water.

my pond is very clean, just a few leaves, you can see to the bottom, and there is not horrid amounts of sudge as it just disapears! This picture you can see right to the bottom, no sludge, you can see the tiny red gravel that fell their many years ago, and I never clean it, it just stays clean, sedges clean like crazy! The water is almost three feet deep there, and you can see the pond shelf.

Aquatic scavenger bugs clean like crazy. These suckers reduce plant decay and sludge to soluble ammonia for your plants. That wouldn't happen in the semi-arid high plains unless a goose or duck stopped by to take a bath and they just happen to have some alive passenger aquatic bugs that can be dropped off. Standing water, just like aquatic bugs, is a rarity here.