CW's Back Yard Water Garden Begins!


Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,881
Reaction score
3,223
Location
Ct
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
My pond is 6 foot deep and I created a swirl to the current of the pond two return jets and the water fall circulate the water counter clock wise. The two main drains are in the center of this counter clock wise spin and the skimmer is along side the waterfall after the water has made a complete rotation. One of my videos in my build is a go pro on a floating handle as it drifts in the current. So in short the surface spins toward the skimmer and the drains in the center make a whirl pool in the center pulling debris in. If was the design I really had no idea if it would work with debris and sediment but I am happy with it . And seeing a whirl pool develope is pretty cool. The one thing I was told and confirmed is you need two drains in deeper ponds they have to be on the same pipe so if someone was to get to the drain and clog it the pressure would shift to the second drain. One law that actually makes sense. But after it is pulled from the drain it just goes to the basket strainer in the external pump and from there straight to the bogs
 
Ad

Advertisements

Joined
Sep 18, 2020
Messages
103
Reaction score
53
Location
Pacific NW
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
My pond is 6 foot deep and I created a swirl to the current of the pond two return jets and the water fall circulate the water counter clock wise. The two main drains are in the center of this counter clock wise spin and the skimmer is along side the waterfall after the water has made a complete rotation. One of my videos in my build is a go pro on a floating handle as it drifts in the current. So in short the surface spins toward the skimmer and the drains in the center make a whirl pool in the center pulling debris in. If was the design I really had no idea if it would work with debris and sediment but I am happy with it . And seeing a whirl pool develope is pretty cool. The one thing I was told and confirmed is you need two drains in deeper ponds they have to be on the same pipe so if someone was to get to the drain and clog it the pressure would shift to the second drain. One law that actually makes sense. But after it is pulled from the drain it just goes to the basket strainer in the external pump and from there straight to the bogs
Thanks for that explanation. Do you have gravel on the bottom of your pond? I don’t remember.
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,881
Reaction score
3,223
Location
Ct
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
Thanks for that explanation. Do you have gravel on the bottom of your pond? I don’t remember.
Yup I do and I have foxtail growing. The other thought I have is with vacuuming 2 inch rocks in the bottom will get stuck in the end of the vac while 3/4 and 1 inch will get clogged in the pipe. And can be a real pain
 
Last edited:

addy1

water gardener / gold fish and shubunkins
Moderator
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
38,772
Reaction score
23,081
Location
Frederick, Maryland
Showcase(s):
1
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
@addy1: I think I read that you had a BD on one of your old ponds, but decided not to have them on your current ones. Is that correct?
Yes you are right. I did not care for it. This is years ago, it sucked in fry, snails, plants etc. Maybe they are better built now. This pond does not have one and I have no regrets 11 years later.

The bottom of my pond has some pea gravel, some kitty litter (spilled over the years) a small amount of muck. I used to net the bottom but after never getting more than 1/2 of a 5 gallon bucket of stuff to toss (early years) to almost nothing to toss later I even quit doing that. Takes a lot of time to pull out the trap door snails, the critters that live in the pond.

Deepest depth is 5.5 or so feet.
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2020
Messages
103
Reaction score
53
Location
Pacific NW
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
Thanks @GBBUDD & @addy1. I'll probably omit the bottom drain. At least for now. What I might do is dig out the bottom and sidewalls of the pond to accept bottom drain plumbing in the future, and then just install the liner. I found someone on YT talking about forming your liner to your BD excavation and simply running your plumbing over the liner, inside your trench instead of cutting the liner and installing underneath.

That seems like such an obvious solution, I can't think of why it is not the default. Maybe just because BDs are more common in DKPs and DKPs don't tend to use any rock to hide the plumbing so they want it under the liner? You could also just paint the pvc black and it would disappear as well.

Even if I decided to install them, I really don't know how I would plumb them into an intake bay (I will not have a traditional skimmer).

Anyway, I think what I'll plan to do is use a flagstone in the bottom of the pond and try to keep it clear with a couple of jets down there.

Does anyone have a recommendation for circulation jets? I've been reading about eductor jets that can move 5x the gpm of the pump that is powering them. Sounds like voodoo magic. Don't totally understand how they work. Have also been looking into Aquascape's pond power heads, which are low voltage, self-contained pumps that don't require any plumbing.

And all this is making me realize I need to make a decision about where electricity lives. If I want to be as safe as possible, I need to plan to use an external pump and also decide if I will allow low voltage cables/devices inside the pond. I'd always planned on a submersible pump protected by a GFCI circuit.

Every question just produces more questions. What a great hobby this is!
 

addy1

water gardener / gold fish and shubunkins
Moderator
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
38,772
Reaction score
23,081
Location
Frederick, Maryland
Showcase(s):
1
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
This is what my ponds bottom looks like, zero cleaning for probably the last 6 years, don't recall the last time I messed with it. You can see the folds in the liner, still uncovered by muck 11 years later.

The stuff on the bottom is maybe 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch thick, under the brown is pea gravel kitty litter etc. When I groom the lilies I do not sink into a deep mess. You can see the trap door snails hanging out down there. This is about 3-4 feet deep. I was out shutting the pond down for the winter.

Ignore the net it is falling apart I need to get a new one next year.
20201102_135542.jpg
 
Ad

Advertisements

Joined
Sep 18, 2020
Messages
103
Reaction score
53
Location
Pacific NW
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
Got busy with work for a week. Rained like crazy. I dug some new channels to direct runoff away from the hole. 99% of the excavation stayed intact, so calling it a success.

Rolled out my underlayment today and started putting it in. It's woven, not the recommended non-woven. But couldn't pass it up. 600 yards of 5oz fabric for $325. This is the stuff loggers build their access roads with around here. Tough stuff. Plan to sandwich the liner in it for extra protection. Have a neighbor from Nextdoor pulling some carpet this week, going to pick it up to use as rock pads.

Don't know how you all get the folds out of your liners. Just getting started with the underlayment is proving challenging, and that's multiple pieces. Kick it into place in one spot, it pops out in another. Gonna get after it again tomorrow and channel my inner Mr. Miyagi—wax on, wax off.

Realizing I must have messed up my liner measurement a bit, too, as I'm going to have WAY TOO much. 25' width of underlayment got me almost all the way there, and I ordered a 40' wide liner. Guess it never hurts to go too big. Can't imagine trying to get a big liner in a mishapen hole with just 1' to play with on each side. Should give me lots if freedom to dig some shallower shelves around the edge if I want. Though I really don't have the space to go any bigger.

Still have some digging to do in the intake bay area to accommodate my water matrix blocks.

Finally, made the decision to go with an external pump instead of a submersible. No line voltage in the pond! After a lot of research, I'll probably go with something like a Sequence 1000 series pump @ 5100gpm. With 3" plumbing, I should get about 4900 gpm to my bog/waterfall for a max of 290 watts. What a deal! Will then supplement that with some low voltage powerheads that should do about 2000 gpm each and placed in spots where I expect circulation to need a boost. If all goes to plan, I'll be circulating and filtering a 7,000 gal pond well under an hour for under 400 watts. That's better than I expected.

Figuring all that out was a fun trip down memory lane of high school engineering class—looking at head pressure tables for different sized pipes and fittings and calculating electric usage from amps/volts when manufacturers don't list wattage.

And that's the brain dump for today!

IMG_1529.JPG
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,881
Reaction score
3,223
Location
Ct
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
going to pick it up to use as rock pads.
i hope your referring to carpet being under the liner

Your intake bay looks more like a negative edge . nothing wrong with that once leaves etc are pulled into the area. they won't be coming out
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,881
Reaction score
3,223
Location
Ct
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
Don't know how you all get the folds out of your liners. Just getting started with the underlayment is proving challenging, and that's multiple pieces. Kick it into place in one spot, it pops out in another. Gonna get after it again tomorrow and channel my inner Mr. Miyagi—wax on, wax off.
One of the most efficient ways is when your filling you can work out some of the wrinkles but i believe your looking at stone in the pond . so it's just a matter of working it the best you can
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2020
Messages
103
Reaction score
53
Location
Pacific NW
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
i hope your referring to carpet being under the liner
I was just planning to put it over the liner where I thought I'd need extra padding before setting down heavier rocks.


Your intake bay looks more like a negative edge
It looks that way because I haven't cut down the ledge between the pond and the bay. I was going to shoot the whole pond with my level one more time before filling to decide how much dirt to cut down to get the right water depth over the ledge.

I'd have to run my #s again, but pretty sure I have way too much water in motion for the intake bay space to function as a negative edge without going a lot deeper.

I know most seem to think of the negative edge as the best form of skimmer, but I kind of think they'd be a pain. With an intake bay, you just net out the debris that ends up in there. With a negative edge, you'd have to get after it with a rake and pick at it to clean. Seems like a lot more work. Also, I would think they're a lot more sensitive to water level change since you're only trying to skim an inch or so of water over the ledge.

I briefly looked into it, but it seemed not as great as I initially thought it would be and wrote it off. Feel free to try to talk me into it, though. :D

Also, after a deep dive on pumps, I now understand why you get grumpy about your power bill. I was shocked to see how much more energy large pumps require than smaller ones. A 12k gpm pump like yours must be a monster energy consumer. When you were building, did you consider doing a few smaller pumps instead of one big one? Seems like it would be a lot more electrically efficient.
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Messages
10,153
Reaction score
10,534
Location
Northern IL
Showcase(s):
1
I wouldn't put carpet inside the pond. Too much potential for mess in my mind - pieces fraying off the cut edges comes to mind. And who knows what that stuff is made out of - mostly chemicals it seems. We spent a lot of time comparing carpeting for our steps and ended up with 100% wool- 100% more expensive, but no chemicals involved in the production. You hear so much these days about carpet and toxic off-gassing. And unless that carpet is relatively new, it's going to be disgustingly dirty. We've taken out every wall to wall carpet in our house and, as someone who vacuums on a regular basis, I was SHOCKED at how filthy that carpet was. I'll never install wall to wall again. You'll have plenty of extra EPDM - use that as rock pads if you feel you need it.

And I agree to an extent on negative edge vs intake bay. We definitely have to rake and clean ours out from time to time. However, one plus is whatever goes over the edge stays over the edge, and it can hold a lot more debris than an intake bay would - size being equal. So I guess if you're truly looking for skimmer action, a negative edge is more reliable. But - I've never lived with an intake bay on a pond, either.
 
Ad

Advertisements

Jhn

Joined
Jul 3, 2017
Messages
1,189
Reaction score
1,087
Location
Maryland
Showcase(s):
1
Hardiness Zone
7b
Country
United States
know most seem to think of the negative edge as the best form of skimmer, but I kind of think they'd be a pain. With an intake bay, you just net out the debris that ends up in there. With a negative edge, you'd have to get after it with a rake and pick at it to clean. Seems like a lot more work. Also, I would think they're a lot more sensitive to water level change since you're only trying to skim an inch or so of water over the ledge.
With a negative edge, water level stays consistent in the pond. The reservoir below the rock and gravel where the pump is located is where the water level changes.
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,881
Reaction score
3,223
Location
Ct
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
function as a negative edge without going a lot deeper.
I think you'll be surprised how little 10,000 gph is across a 4 foot opening if anything its probably perfect for a good draw toward it. For leaves etc . Look at the video I attached with 5,000 gph as a water fall its alot less then one would expect
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,881
Reaction score
3,223
Location
Ct
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
With a negative edge, water level stays consistent in the pond. The reservoir below the rock and gravel where the pump is located is where the water level changes.
Correct, except the intake bay pond fluctuates as well just not as drastic. You'll still loose water regardless i automatic placement system fills tha bill.
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2020
Messages
103
Reaction score
53
Location
Pacific NW
Hardiness Zone
8b
Country
United States
I wouldn't put carpet inside the pond. Too much potential for mess in my mind - pieces fraying off the cut edges comes to mind.
This makes sense. I'll have tons of leftover underlayment. That might be good enough.

And I agree to an extent on negative edge vs intake bay.
I meant to tag you on that. I think you're the only person I've seen on the forum that has one.


With a negative edge, water level stays consistent in the pond. The reservoir below the rock and gravel where the pump is located is where the water level changes.
Ah, yes. You're right. I was thinking about it wrong.


I think you'll be surprised how little 10,000 gph is across a 4 foot opening if anything its probably perfect for a good draw toward it. For leaves etc . Look at the video I attached with 5,000 gph as a water fall its alot less then one would expect
I believe you size a negative edge skimmer on the amount of water in motion, not flow. So, if you have 3" of water in your wetland filter, a stream, and then 2-3" of water falling over your negative edge, your basin has to be sized to hold enough water for your flow + be able to capture all of that water in motion (surface area of pond * 2-3" + wetland/stream water in motion) so that you don't overflow when you unplug your pump.
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,881
Reaction score
3,223
Location
Ct
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
Correct, except the intake bay pond fluctuates as well just not as drastic. You'll still loose water regardless i automatic placement system fills tha bill.
Whoops didn't see you had jumped in there @Jhn .
The other post I want to weigh in on is I would not use carpet inside the pond under any circumstances. I have had very susceptible people have issues with there carpeting to the point it had to be ripped out and I'm talking thousands of dollars. The homeowner was very very sensitive. So that says to me carpet in the water where fish live 24 /7 I wouldnt do it id take your woven fabric and make layers of it bunched up and put under any rock you question
 
Ad

Advertisements

Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,881
Reaction score
3,223
Location
Ct
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
I meant to tag you on that. I think you're the only person I've seen on the f
No i built a negative edge as well but I made it a water fall as well its at the beginning of the last video I posted on my blog but Lisa has a dry area (no pond) after the negative edge . I have mine as a double pool area. The first negative aspect is the falls of a foot it lands in a 6x6 foot pool where I keep the ends of a branch in tge water so leaves etc get hung up and can be removed. It also allows leaves etc to fall to the bottom and not go over the next negative edge which is to the cistern. There I created a pocket wher debris is allowed to collect at the base of tge falls kinda like a skimmer basket but as debris collects the water level will rise in this pocket which is about a foot lower then the aquablox. So the water just rises and still flows into the area if it gets so full it will flow over the top and drop between the rocks ontop of the aqua blocks. What I dont particularly like about intake bays is there is no surface pull when leaves etc fall on a pond it takes hours or even days for them to sink a negative edge sucks them in very quickly if done correctly a intake bay may never have enough draw as it does not create a lot of pull.
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,881
Reaction score
3,223
Location
Ct
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
This makes sense. I'll have tons of leftover underlayment. That might be good enough.



I meant to tag you on that. I think you're the only person I've seen on the forum that has one.




Ah, yes. You're right. I was thinking about it wrong.




I believe you size a negative edge skimmer on the amount of water in motion, not flow. So, if you have 3" of water in your wetland filter, a stream, and then 2-3" of water falling over your negative edge, your basin has to be sized to hold enough water for your flow + be able to capture all of that water in motion (surface area of pond * 2-3" + wetland/stream water in motion) so that you don't overflow when you unplug your pump.
Correct as to needing the area to hold the water as if the power goes out and it will you need to allo8w for that water.
My bog does not empty out I just loose an inch because the spill way is wider then it is deep. The stream as a pool at the end so the water does not empty out there either it just stops running / flow. The pond on the other hand does drop about 3 inches do to the size. But 5hat water drops into the cistern now if the cistern is full then yes I will loose that water . But its collected rain water so I'm not paying for it. In your case how ever your pond and negative edge sides can be the same height from what I see so the only draw back is similar to your intake bay that the water will rise and over flow the divider / negative edge but having the sides even in height no water loss unless streamand bog empty out .
 
Ad

Advertisements

Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,881
Reaction score
3,223
Location
Ct
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
Holly koi lol wow get a little rain there doen t that create issue with extra nutrients fertilizers etc yikes
 
Last edited:

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top