Don't let your pond ice completely over

[callingcolleen1]

That is ok, not to worry! I have been reading on the internet about other people who have been wintering their koi outside in extreme conditions and this one guy has been doing it for a long time like me, and he says many koi people are just worried about leaving fish outside cause many die due to other factors like getting smothered under the ice. Koi will not die off in ice cold water as long as the water is clean and fresh and has lots of oxygen. The problem is that many turn off the filters and pumps and then the water quality goes down hill and built up gases smother the fish, even with a small breather hole, lots of gas still gets trapped under the ice. Koi can live well in the Great Lakes and other areas in ice cold water in Canada, and they warn not to put these fish into the wild cause they are taking over some natural areas cause Koi are really cold water fish and they need a period of ice cold water during the winter to kill off virus and parasites and other things that bug them. That is why you always read about people having trouble with sick koi in southern locations, cause they are not given a proper winter and thus they get sick.

 

[callingcolleen1]

and lets not forget many many many many many so called experts are proven wrong over and over and over and over again!

 

[Dave 54]

To say we dont see intense cold even as far south as where we are is a nonsence , though admittedly we dont keep it as long as in Canada we do otherwise get it .
Sleeping sickness is a fact we cant get around that can we , why would our experts report on it otherwise ?

the experts said Koi do not do well in ice cold water and I have proven them wrong on that too. Unless you have actually wintered your ponds with big koi for the last 24 years, (or for a number of cold winters) which most have not, cause they all live down south but call themselves an expert... You have not seen your ground frozen down 6 feet and two feet of ice on your ponds either, big difference I would say!
My ponds are also only 3 feet deep, thanks to running water all winter, the top ponds do not get as much ice and I do not worry ever about how cold the water is, on how much ice is covering the top ponds and how thick it is.



Dave

Again Colleen I can only say to you take it up with the experts as weve always said everyone from the experts down are still learning about our hobby and our charges be they goldfish or koi .
Like us they are human beings and are in most cases approachable and will listen , they also give out information in the form of Goldfish and Koi Books but more importantly health books from which you can learn alott.
I for one Colleen would be straight on the case if your own koi suddenly fell ill and so will others but its down to you how much you want to learn about the hobby and if your open to new ideas etc.
The reason Val first ever bought me a fish health book is because I was making mistakes and killing the goldfish we'd bought but once read it sort of gave us a passion to learn that bit more and now 27 years on we are still learning be it new ideas new ways of treating fish etc.
Weve amassed quite a sustantial reference Library to boot .

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

and lets not forget many many many many many so called experts are proven wrong over and over and over and over again!

If thats how you feel about thingsColleen then write a book about keeping koi the Canadian way I'm sure people would buy it , as I for one would , what you have to remember alott of the exprts are either from Europe South Africa and the USA and they dont live in Canada but they themselves can only write what they have learned its up to you as a fish keeper to find the middle way .
We have Koi books from all over the koi world strangely there are none from Canada that I know of .
Like I said we each do things a different way its up to us to teach one another.
But remember once you write that book your one of those people you seem to be upset by an expert

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

..... they are taking over some natural areas cause Koi are really cold water fish and they need a period of ice cold water during the winter to kill off virus and parasites and other things that bug them. That is why you always read about people having trouble with sick koi in southern locations, cause they are not given a proper winter and thus they get sick.

Koi's classification depends on who you listen to. Most pondkeepers and Koi enthusiasts state that Koi/Carp are a cold-water fish. Freshwater fishermen classify them as a Cool-water fish. The vast majority of the scientific community classify them as a Warm-water fish (not to be confused with Tropical). Most of the confusion stems from the fact that Koi/Carp are one of the most adaptable fish specie on the planet. Their ability to tolerate lower Oxygen levels than true Cold-water fish tells me that they are not Cold-water fish. Their homeostatic Oxygen demand is optimal at about 79F. This would seem to indicate that they are at least a Cool-water fish, if not a borderline Warm-water fish.
Parasites and Virus are not 'killed off' by cold temperatures but only enter a dormant form and are re-activated by rising temperatures i.e. Spring Viraemia and Aeromonas hydrophilia. The reports that I see on the internet of fish health issues are overwhelmingly from Northern latitude ponds. In close to 20 years of servicing ponds in the south (Florida), I have never experienced a common disease or parasite problem with any Koi.

 

[MitchM]

Mitch is is ok for you to have your pond totally covered in ice and run only that pond breather cause you have small fish and a massive pond. However People with large fish in a smaller pond need to worry much more about having total ice coverage that is for sure!

Ice cover is not the issue. Available oxygen for the fish is.

.

 

[Dave 54]

I was about to say about the parasites, thanx Meyer
One of the biggest voices calling for heated ponds for koi in the winter months is non other than Peter Waddington himself others also call for heated ponds ,
We know that the Japanese bring their koi indoors for the winter .
There's is more of a short sharp one, then ours more prolonged , in Europe its slightly colder then you have all the temperature zones throughout the US Colleens probably has the longest winter than any of us

Dave

 

[callingcolleen1]

Parasites and other bugs do die off and leave the fish in extreme cold, and they never affect my fish, not since they have been outside in the ice cold water for 24 years. Plus we all know that "Cold Water fish" are healthier in the wild, in their ice cold water, as anybody that goes "Ice fishing" would know. Nobody wants to eat Pike out of a dirty hot slew in the summer, cause they are awful tasting too! Many years ago back in 1991, when I first took my fish outside that first summer my goldfish were itching and scratching very bad. After my first winter I never had problem with that again.

Lets be logical, if there is such thing as sleeping sickness in Koi, that Dave says effects koi when the water temperature drops, why have my Koi never had that problem in all the years I have left them out?

Why does it only effect the goldfish after the first big temperature drop and then they make a full recovery in a couple weeks and is never seen again after that when I have the even colder weather of minus 40 below?

Ya and my Ice cold Cold koi are all still alive and well today! You know what they say, "seeing is believing" !

I love this video I shot today, it is very relaxing watching the fish and they really look good! Water temperature is barely above freezing....

 

[callingcolleen1]

Koi's classification depends on who you listen to. Most pondkeepers and Koi enthusiasts state that Koi/Carp are a cold-water fish. Freshwater fishermen classify them as a Cool-water fish. The vast majority of the scientific community classify them as a Warm-water fish (not to be confused with Tropical). Most of the confusion stems from the fact that Koi/Carp are one of the most adaptable fish specie on the planet. Their ability to tolerate lower Oxygen levels than true Cold-water fish tells me that they are not Cold-water fish. Their homeostatic Oxygen demand is optimal at about 79F. This would seem to indicate that they are at least a Cool-water fish, if not a borderline Warm-water fish.
Parasites and Virus are not 'killed off' by cold temperatures but only enter a dormant form and are re-activated by rising temperatures i.e. Spring Viraemia and Aeromonas hydrophilia. The reports that I see on the internet of fish health issues are overwhelmingly from Northern latitude ponds. In close to 20 years of servicing ponds in the south (Florida), I have never experienced a common disease or parasite problem with any Koi.

I think that most people in Northern latitudes are taking advice from people in Southern latitudes and bringing their koi inside for the winter and hence the health issues. As far as I know very few people leave their koi outside in ice cold running water other than me and a few others that have since followed me in the last couple years. Koi in Southern latitudes are outside most of the time cause it does not freeze there. In Northern latitudes most people have their koi inside for six long months of the year in a much smaller space over the winter.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Dave I have looked up sleeping sickness and no where does it say it is caused by ice cold water or anything to do with cold water from what I have read. They claim that it is viral and caused by extreme stress. The recommend the standard treatment of salt bath and raise the temp of water. {that is standard treatment to raise the temp of water cause then the fishes metabolism speeds up and quicker recovery as with most illnesses.
http://animals.pawnation.com/treat-sleeping-sickness-koi-10729.html

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Lets be logical, if there is such thing as sleeping sickness in Koi, that Dave says effects koi when the water temperature drops, why have my Koi never had that problem in all the years I have left them out?

Why does it only effect the goldfish after the first big temperature drop and then they make a full recovery in a couple weeks and is never seen again after that when I have the even colder weather of minus 40 below?

Yes, let's be logical. Koi 'Sleeping Sickness' is a viral disease that has been scientifically documented. However, it only affects Koi and only those Koi that are younger than one year old. It does not affect Goldfish. What you are describing concerning Goldfish is likely the reaction to stress caused by a "big temperature drop" and they Will recover as they slowly adapt to the temperature change.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I think that most people in Northern latitudes are taking advice from people in Southern latitudes and bringing their koi inside for the winter and hence the health issues. As far as I know very few people leave their koi outside in ice cold running water other than me and a few others that have since followed me in the last couple years. Koi in Southern latitudes are outside most of the time cause it does not freeze there. In Northern latitudes most people have their koi inside for six long months of the year in a much smaller space over the winter.

MOST pondkeepers in Northern latitudes DO NOT bring their Koi inside for the winter. Check out other Pond Forums and you will see that this is true.

 

[Lisak1]

I would concur with you Meyer on that. We have visited dozens of pond in our area - none of those fish spend winters indoors. None of the ponds are heated - you would spend a fortune trying to heat a pond in our climate. And also many ponds here are only 24 inches deep. Koi do fine at that depth all year round.

 

[callingcolleen1]

The only people I know that used to keep them outside here killed their fish off using a air pump and heater. Air pumps froze off last year for the big "pond Guy" who has local pet store and builds ponds in town and he lost all his fish last winter in really big pond. Then there was big koi at this local golf course a few years back and they died one year too. Then my other friend her fish all died off several years back cause she too used air bubbler and that line condensated and froze and they all died. I could go on and on, but one of my best pond friends used to always take her into the heated garage and they were just fine on their. She moved few years ago and gave me her half Koi "Backie" and gave her big koi to that golf course that killed them all later that winter, cause that pond was really big and I can't fit any more big koi into my small pond.

I Think I am the only one left with koi still alive and well in this city that keep them outside! And that is cause I run my pumps all winter!

 

[callingcolleen1]

It freezes very hard here in town and only on VERY rare occasions do we NOT get down to -40 and lower!