Don't let your pond ice completely over

[callingcolleen1]

Dave was claiming that the fish had brunt gills due to ice, and I was simply stating that it must have been from built up gases that the fish inhaled and not ice fromantic bottom of pond as ice forms at top of pond.
Plus their was a heater in that pond but ice was quite thick he said, so I believe the gills were burnt from gases and not ice, as fish lived till spring.

It could also have been a bacterial infection as well like Meyes says.

I do not believe pond water can be "super cooled" in most ponds like lots of people think or I would have seen it as my pond runs all year in some of the worst weather on planet.

 

[callingcolleen1]

In natural ponds the waste at bottom of pond produces heat as it continues to ferment. Frogs and turtles are known to dig down into pond bottom before winter because it is warmer because of bacteria breaking down pond waste. All ponds will have some waste and some more than others. This is also were gases can rise from.

 

[callingcolleen1]

MOST pondkeepers in Northern latitudes DO NOT bring their Koi inside for the winter. Check out other Pond Forums and you will see that this is true.

Not here where I live. Most take their fish inside

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Gases can come from rotting plant material and other waste, that sometimes can build up under the ice. As the pond waste digests it can produce gas.

DAVE Did mention that the gills were burnt, most likely from inhaling toxic gases under the ice.

The gases that you refer too may be toxic at certain levels, but they are not caustic. Chlorine is an example of a caustic gas. The gases that are generated in an aquatic environment are Ammonia, Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide, Oxygen, Hydrogen Sulfide and Methane. None of which are caustic and would cause gill damage.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Not here where I live. Most take their fish inside

Colleen, you are forgetting that where you live is subject to extreme cold and truly never really warms up. The vast majority of existing ponds are in milder climates than yours. What occurs in ponds in your area can not be used as a guideline for ponds in milder climates. Too much difference in ALL influencing factors.

 

[callingcolleen1]

yes, you are right there, but I am just trying to point out to Dave about his friends fish that died off, he thought that the gills were burnt from ice and I thing the gills were burnt from poor water quality and built up gases and not ice, as ice would be at the top of the pond and not the bottom were the fish lay in winter. And his friend who lost her koi is a little north of me, and that was a very very cold day.

I am just trying to show people not to fear ice cold running water and that super chilled water is not likely to occur in ponds with water flowing like the creek or river. Lots of people turn off their pumps even far down south of me, and then when the pond freezes, it will freeze harder if there pumps are shut off.

You would not believe me how many people out there think ice cold running water is more dangerous to fish that a stinky pool of warm stagnant water under the smothered ice! Then I get people tell me that my water would be to cold for fish, when I have had koi in ice cold running water are very alive and well after more than two long cold decades in zone 2/3.

 

[callingcolleen1]

The gases that you refer too may be toxic at certain levels, but they are not caustic. Chlorine is an example of a caustic gas. The gases that are generated in an aquatic environment are Ammonia, Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide, Oxygen, Hydrogen Sulfide and Methane. None of which are caustic and would cause gill damage.

you could be right about that, as am not a chemist, but I can tell you have have seen deformed gills and what appeared to be burnt looking gills on fish subjected to very poor water quality.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

you could be right about that, as am not a chemist, but I can tell you have have seen deformed gills and what appeared to be burnt looking gills on fish subjected to very poor water quality.

Poor water quality>stressed fish>suppressed immune system>parasites>bacterial/viral disease and infections>mortality(?).

With the possible exception of Ammonia, none of the other gases would reach toxic levels in the water column during the Winter months, even in a completely iced-over pond. Carbon Dioxide can become toxic, but only if Oxygen drops to a dangerously low level.

 

[Catfishnut]

Because of my personal experiences with natural small lakes and large ponds, I disagree with the statement that CO2 and other gases / compounds such as ammonia and H2SO4 cannot reach toxic levels during winter. If the ice over the pond becomes thick and solid (hard ice with no porosity) and there are no openings to the air above, these gases and compounds can accumulate and O2 cannot exchange into the pond either. The source of these gases and compounds are detritus, uneaten fish food and natural fish waste from their excrement as well as their "breathing".

Here is a good article regarding wintering a Koi pond:

http://www.pondtrademag.com/articles/ar-73/

However, the author mentions one thing that I am certainly not in total agreement with. He does not recommend removing snow from the pond ice. Although shoveling snow off a pond surface may prove unwise for the obvious safety reasons, there is a major drawback to having a total (and thick) snow cover over the ice. If it is sufficient to block all sunlight, then any beneficial bacteria and plant cells which cope at these lower temperatures will not be able to produce O2 via photosynthesis and will not be able to break down any harmful compounds including ammonia and nitrogen. Yes, even at 32 degrees, some of these bacteria and plants are still alive and functioning. Some areas of snow cover over the ice would help to insulate the pond to maintain its temperature, but you wouldn't want the entire surface smothered in deep snow.

Here in Nebraska, a small lake or pond that is protected from the wind during winter will experience a large winter kill because the wind cannot blow the snow off the ice to allow even marginal sunlight to seep through. During the year that the author mentioned (2009) we too experienced that cold here in Nebraska, with lots of snow as well. One of the nearby lakes where I fish often is an oxbow lake and it is nestled in a dense grove of trees and sunken down below the landscape so that the wind cannot reach the surface to blow the snow away. When spring came and the lake thawed out, there were thousands of dead fish littering the lake.

With all the trees surrounding this lake, it was full of detritus (leaves and sticks). With no openings in the ice, none of the gases from the decay of this material nor the ammonia from the fish could escape and no O2 could be absorbed from the atmosphere nor produced by any vegetation.

There was another winter when this occurred for a lake which was about 8 or 10 acres in size. This lake contained a lot of huge spoonbill cats. It was a very sad sight to see all these fish and other species dead.

Catfishnut

 

[dieselplower]

Because of my personal experiences with natural small lakes and large ponds, I disagree with the statement that CO2 and other gases / compounds such as ammonia and H2SO4 cannot reach toxic levels during winter. If the ice over the pond becomes thick and solid (hard ice with no porosity) and there are no openings to the air above, these gases and compounds can accumulate and O2 cannot exchange into the pond either. The source of these gases and compounds are detritus, uneaten fish food and natural fish waste from their excrement as well as their "breathing".

Here is a good article regarding wintering a Koi pond:

http://www.pondtrademag.com/articles/ar-73/

However, the author mentions one thing that I am certainly not in total agreement with. He does not recommend removing snow from the pond ice. Although shoveling snow off a pond surface may prove unwise for the obvious safety reasons, there is a major drawback to having a total (and thick) snow cover over the ice. If it is sufficient to block all sunlight, then any beneficial bacteria and plant cells which cope at these lower temperatures will not be able to produce O2 via photosynthesis and will not be able to break down any harmful compounds including ammonia and nitrogen. Yes, even at 32 degrees, some of these bacteria and plants are still alive and functioning. Some areas of snow cover over the ice would help to insulate the pond to maintain its temperature, but you wouldn't want the entire surface smothered in deep snow.

Here in Nebraska, a small lake or pond that is protected from the wind during winter will experience a large winter kill because the wind cannot blow the snow off the ice to allow even marginal sunlight to seep through. During the year that the author mentioned (2009) we too experienced that cold here in Nebraska, with lots of snow as well. One of the nearby lakes where I fish often is an oxbow lake and it is nestled in a dense grove of trees and sunken down below the landscape so that the wind cannot reach the surface to blow the snow away. When spring came and the lake thawed out, there were thousands of dead fish littering the lake.

With all the trees surrounding this lake, it was full of detritus (leaves and sticks). With no openings in the ice, none of the gases from the decay of this material nor the ammonia from the fish could escape and no O2 could be absorbed from the atmosphere nor produced by any vegetation.

There was another winter when this occurred for a lake which was about 8 or 10 acres in size. This lake contained a lot of huge spoonbill cats. It was a very sad sight to see all these fish and other species dead.

Catfishnut

How do you know what they died from? Could have just been lack of oxygen?

 

[Catfishnut]

Good Morning Dieselplower,

I believe what the biologists and fisheries professionals have published and told me personally regarding winter fish kills for the smaller lakes and ponds in my area. It is the consensus of their ilk that a definite lack of oxygen as well as a build up of ammonia, nitrogen compounds, carbon dioxide and hydrogen sulfide gases, changes in pH, and other matters (all combined) resulted in the death of the fishes. They measure these parameters on the major (popular) lakes that they maintain for fisheries. They are trained biologists and chemical engineers in these matters and I just believe that they know what they are doing and telling me. Seems totally logical as I read a great deal of information which supports it, too.

Catfishnut

 

[MitchM]

Because of my personal experiences with natural small lakes and large ponds, I disagree with the statement that CO2 and other gases / compounds such as ammonia and H2SO4 cannot reach toxic levels during winter. If the ice over the pond becomes thick and solid (hard ice with no porosity) and there are no openings to the air above, these gases and compounds can accumulate and O2 cannot exchange into the pond either. The source of these gases and compounds are detritus, uneaten fish food and natural fish waste from their excrement as well as their "breathing".

Here is a good article regarding wintering a Koi pond:

http://www.pondtrademag.com/articles/ar-73/...

Catfishnut

I read that article, but I think that aerating a pond is the weakest method that you can use for over wintering a pond. Once those airlines freeze, there is no thawing them out.
A floating heater is expensive to operate and only provides a passive method of aerating the pond water.
I still believe a pond breather is both the most effective and inexpensive method to maintain a healthy oxygen level for overwintering a pond.

I may be wrong, as this is only my third year overwintering a pond, so if someone has a better approach I would love to hear it.
But be prepared to provide facts to back up your reasoning.


.

 

[Catfishnut]

Mitch,

I have a solution for my pond here in Nebraska. Although our weather is not normally as cold as yours or Colleens, this works OK for what I am doing and the fish I keep (remember that I am not keeping Koi, but bullheads and bluegills and sunfish, etc.)

I have been utilizing Gast (brand) rotary vane pumps for my aerators. I keep them enclosed in a shed or an insulated "box" of sorts. Because of the friction action of the rotary vanes, they heat the air while compressing it to run the aerators. This additional heating helps to warm the water of my pond (a tank in my case). I just take care not to over-aerate the water so that I am not creating too much water circulation. I just set them up to provide a gentle "bubbler" in winter. The output of these pumps can become quite hot so I have to be careful in the summer months so as not to overheat the water, but in the winter, they are a bonus for my purposes.

I usually convert to the use of Gast diaphragm pumps in the warmer months.

Gordy

 

[MitchM]

If someone has a method that is working for them, that's great. People's pond design and climate can be vastly different.

-but being a newcomer to outdoor ponds, I have been looking for a solution that works in my situation. I have tried reading many articles about overwintering ponds, and have tried them, but I seem to be in a relatively extreme cold weather climate. (seems normal to me though.)
I've been pleasantly surprised to find a low cost effective solution for my pond while coming across countless anecdotal expensive solutions and misconceptions about winter pond keeping . (good grief, I sound like an infomercial... sorry about that)
Anyways, I'll keep posting about my winter pond conditions in case it helps anyone else.

 

[Lisak1]

I think that sums it up right there Mitch - if you have a method that works for YOU then keep doing it! If someone is having issues with overwintering, then this discussion may shed some light on why. Pond size and design, climate, fish load, exposure... so many variables to think one solution would work for everyone.