Don't let your pond ice completely over

[Dave 54]

colleen try not to bite my hand off ok all I can do is comment on what I see have read about etc the poster asked for advice I gave it thats all if you were sat in our front room I would show you a photo's of exactly what is going on in the posters pond.
You have a heated pond they dont , its the same as my Canadian friend you say your pond is ice free yet we know she had 2ft of ice on her pond and dead koi through it , so she like the Japanese and many others and on Val and my advice brings them indoors the net result no more losses .
Some people do things differently to others it doesnt mean they are wrong now does it .
Sleepy sickness normally effects young koi at 15-20c Meyer says that Sleeping sickness and Sleepy sickness are the same thats fine by me I took a lesson away from that , this is what forums are for may I remind you you have a cattle heater on your pond which keeps your water fluid our friends heater couldnt cope with the intense cold what would happen if you lost the cattle heater ?
You have to be open to taking advice discuss it and if it works for you use it .
Meyer has told you what happens to parasites during the winter yet you still say differently, that up to you , you do things your way and have had sucess and I say good on you , the photo matches what I've seen before so I commented on it and said why it happens and the experts take on it .
We are still learning even after 27 years have never claimed to be experts and never will do uless we take lots of exams and turn our hobby into a job which is what we dont want as it would take the enjoyment away .


Dave

 

[Catfishnut]

Just for conversation:

Once, many years ago, I left a 2 gallon bucket of nearly one dozen minnows outside during the fall when it became very cold. The water in the bucket froze nearly solid. It was solid from the bottom up, from the sides in and the top down. There was just a small cavity of liquid water in the middle of the chunk of ice with no visible signs of any air pockets. All the minnows were encapsulated in the center of that "ice cube". They were all alive and swimming and darting about. I left them there as an experiment because I thought that the sight was rather interesting. I wanted to see how long they would last that way. They lived in that small confine for 4-5 days until the weather warmed up and freed them. Then they began to die off over the next day or two, until all were dead and gone or I had used them for fishing bait.

What I found unusual about this is that this was the longest I had ever kept minnows alive in a bucket without an aerator or running water. The entire period was 9 or 10 days. Normally I would have been lucky to keep them alive for 16 to 24 hours, if even that long.

Catfishnut

 

[Dave 54]

The only people I know that used to keep them outside here killed their fish off using a air pump and heater. Air pumps froze off last year for the big "pond Guy" who has local pet store and builds ponds in town and he lost all his fish last winter in really big pond. Then there was big koi at this local golf course a few years back and they died one year too. Then my other friend her fish all died off several years back cause she too used air bubbler and that line condensated and froze and they all died. I could go on and on, but one of my best pond friends used to always take her into the heated garage and they were just fine on their. She moved few years ago and gave me her half Koi "Backie" and gave her big koi to that golf course that killed them all later that winter, cause that pond was really big and I can't fit any more big koi into my small pond.

I Think I am the only one left with koi still alive and well in this city that keep them outside! And that is cause I run my pumps all winter!

Which coast oare you nearest Colleen our friend Elaine is on the Pacific side of the world they on a regular basis get a windchill factor of -54c her koi would not survive the outside temperature, yet since she moved indoors during the winter shes not lost a single one .
Her heater simply couldnt cope with the temperature and gave up.

Dave

 

[Mike in Vermont]

I used to do a lot of ice fishing for Yellow Perch. They taste so good, when caught through the ice. Usually, you drill 3 or 4 holes. After catching the fish, I would leave them on the ice. When I was done fishing, I would pick up all of the fish near the drilled holes, and put them in a 5 gallon pail.. They would be froze completely solid. When I got home, I would put the pail in the bathtub. Within an hour or two, the fish would thaw out, and come back to life. So lively, I believe they could be released and survive.
.
With that said, I no nothing about Koi.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Dave I live on the cold Canadian Praires and we get wind chills of minus 50 below too some winters. A while back I remember we talked about this and she did not leave a pump running I think you told me. If she used a air bubbler the lines freeze inside them at that temperture due to condensation, which is why I leave my pumps run with all underwater filters and pumps to protect them from freezing. Without any water movement the pond will freeze very very hard, even with heater. Last winter because we had long cold sustained Temps the ground froze down 6 feet in town and some people their had pipes that burst and froze. Her fish simply sofficated.

 

[callingcolleen1]

All I know for sure is that over the last two decades that I have been wintering my pond, we have had some record cold tempertures for sure. If you live here you can always count on minus 40 and below to happen at least once every year. The year before was the warmest winter I ever can remember, the coldest it got was down to minus 22 Celsius, and the coldest year in a long time was last year, we had some really long cold days and lots of minus 40 below. Last year was the first time in a long time that the bottom pond had well over one foot of ice, and that is with a heater running in the middle pond. The top ponds do not get as much ice because the water is always pumped to max, and the running water eats the ice away nice.

I have never worried about the ice cold water, and the water temp is always barely above freezing all winter long. Water can not get any colder that freezing, or at least I have never seen this so called super cooled water, cause it freezes and turns to ice at about zero.

Dave I think your friend lives one province over in British Colombia if I remember correct, and living by the warm pacific is better than in the harsh cold Canadian Prairies I believe, cause the warm Pacific keeps the coast more warmer.

 

[Dave 54]

No you have that all wrong Colleen her fish would survive the winter but as soon as the water warmed up again they would die , it was found that the intense cold was damaging the koi's gill filaments thus leaving the koi unable to survive as the water heated up again when they would sadly die

Dave

 

[callingcolleen1]

I think it was build up gases that the big koi were breathing under the ice myself. I have seen that with many other peoples koi here in town in the past. Not enough water circulation in my opinion staved them of oxygen and their gills got burnt by gases.. Cause you cannot freeze your gills if you are under water, cause water turns to ice at the top of pond and NOT AT THE BOTTOM OF POND, where fish hang out and gases build up. One small air hole is simply not enough in a small back yard pond with big koi, My water temperature falls to 31 degrees and I have never ever saw my fish get gills burnt by ice at the bottom of pond, just makes no sense to me cause Ice only forms at the top, unless they were part frozen in ice.

Water freezes at 32F degrees, but not if always, like if water is moving, and it is really cold, then it freezes at about 30 F. There is such thing as super cooling water, but that happens in a lab or on rare occasions in the clouds above the earth, but not in a pond with no moving water.

 

[callingcolleen1]

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/at-what-temperature-does-water-freeze-1120813/?no-ist
Sorry Dave, but my augment makes more sense. Plus I have many years of experience with ice cold water in minus 45 below, and large koi.

 

[MitchM]

Your pond water freezes at the same temperature as the rest of our ponds, Colleen.
32 degrees F.

 

[dieselplower]

Colleen, what are these gases? Where are they coming from?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/at-what-temperature-does-water-freeze-1120813/?no-ist
Sorry Dave, but my augment makes more sense. Plus I have many years of experience with ice cold water in minus 45 below, and large koi.

This article specifically deals with supercooling of 'pure water', hardly what one would find in a Winter pond.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

No you have that all wrong Colleen her fish would survive the winter but as soon as the water warmed up again they would die , it was found that the intense cold was damaging the koi's gill filaments thus leaving the koi unable to survive as the water heated up again when they would sadly die

Dave

Likely a bacterial infection acquired as the pond water warmed. The function of the immune systems of fish always lag behind the increase in water temperature in the Spring. This is why many health problems manifest at this time of year.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Colleen, what are these gases? Where are they coming from?

I am curious about this also.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Gases can come from rotting plant material and other waste, that sometimes can build up under the ice. As the pond waste digests it can produce gas.

DAVE Did mention that the gills were burnt, most likely from inhaling toxic gases under the ice.