Hours of city water through garden hose.

[Herma]

Very good news to report! My koi are doing great so far. The water test was WNL, normal ammonia and normal pH and normal chlorine. Thank you all for your replies, learned a lot from Water Bug! (I actually used to live really close to Andrew Moo's store in Garden Grove, California before moving to Oregon, but I was not into ponding then). As a side note: my children were innocent. It was my !&)@# husband who decided the pond water was low and not filling fast enough. I think I've now cleared that up with him and give him an education.....among other things.

 

[crsublette]

You might want to look into attaching an in-line chlorine/chloramine filter, which you can find these that attach directly to your hose. This should be what you learned from this situation. These type of accidents, whether due to children or a spouse or other distractions, are actually quite common occurrence from folk who have chlorine/chloramine treated tap water.


As far as I am aware, I have never read of any testimonial of ammonia binders harming fish. These are made specifically so to overdose the water and to be used in large amounts. You would have to use an extraordinary large amount of product to do any harm to the fish. Also, the bound ammonia is only temporary since the microorganisms only way to access it is by breaking the "binding" agent, which releases unbound ammonia into the water; due to this, there is a ammonia rebound effect when using ammonia binders. This is one of the reasons why ammonia binding products is only a temporary fix. As explained in the thread, An ammonia question... A reading from the strip, I would make sure you know exactly the impact of the ammonia to your fish in your specific water chemistry. Just a tiny bit of ammonia can significantly harm fish if the water is quite alkaline and warm.

Chloramine actually only contains an incredibly small amount of ammonia, which is likely quickly consumed by your algae or filtration. The only time I have heard of chloramine being the cause of an ammonia reading, after a dechlorinator is used, is when a significant large amount of chloramine treated tap water is put into the pond. However, the ammonia binder in the dechlorinator resolves this small amount of ammonia quite easy due to how it slowly releases the ammonia so to be used by other microorganisms and algae or plants.

 

[Waterbug]

Very good news to report! My koi are doing great so far.

They're tougher than we give them credit, and I think we give chlorine a bit more power than it has.

The water test was WNL, normal ammonia and normal pH and normal chlorine.

I always cringe when people post "normal" as a test result. Leaves me wondering what they mean.

I actually used to live really close to Andrew Moo's store in Garden Grove, California before moving to Oregon, but I was not into ponding then

Andy's videos were a real help to me. I had already come to think the same way but boy, talking about new concepts in forums...you're always all alone and taking crap from all sides. Hearing from someone in the public eye, with clear Koi raising skills has been such a help to be able to reference his videos, and others, really helps reduce the noise so common in forums.

As a side note: my children were innocent. It was my !&)@# husband who decided the pond water was low and not filling fast enough. I think I've now cleared that up with him and give him an education.....among other things.

I have a perfect record of forgetting the hose was on in the pond...I have never once ever remembered to turn it off. It took several scares but I finally figured out $20 for parts and a little work I could solve the problem forever. I haven't looked back since and I say good riddance to hearing my wife say "do you want the pond overflowing?"

 

[Waterbug]

I think it's cool if people want to spend the money for an in-line chlorine filter and do the maintenance. But hope they don't rely on it 100% and assume it's working, or how well it's working. So imo all the same safe guards should be kept in place. Owner's choice though of course. I just happen to prefer butt simple and cheap.

Ammonia binders are indeed very safe. However, when dealing with a pond that has no history of testing so I have no idea what's going on I don't want to be the first in line to tell people this stuff is perfectly safe. I do know there will always be a line of people around the block to tell people things are safe. I know a little about ponds, but there is a ton of stuff I don't know. I don't know the exact product the poster have tossed in their pond, almost never do. Some products don't disclose ingredients. When ingredients are disclosed and there are things like copper and ammonia in the pond I don't have the education to know how all the chemicals in specific dechlorinators and ammonia binders interact with the copper, ammonia, pH, O2 level, at the pond's current temp and pH (which are always unknown in these threads). I do however know a a little. Like these products can effect pH. Now if I knew the KH I'd be less concerned, but I never do in these threads.

If there really is high toxic ammonia and not a false reading, then of course an ammonia binder is useful.

I'm just not personally willing to stand up and say it's perfectly OK to keep dumping stuff into a pond...especially with no water quality test results, not even water temp when there are safer, easier, cheaper, less stressful alternatives. I do understand that is not a popular position in forums, but that's OK with me.

The problem is I just don't have the trust in many of these products most people have. The front of the bottom says "Fish Safe" while the MSDS, hidden in the back and only published because it's required by law, gives a much different picture. Or they don't even have to say what's in the bottle so they don't.

There was just a thread here (I think) of someone using Microbe-Lift, a completely fish safe product, says so right on the bottle. All or most of the fish dead in about an hour. Now I'm not entirely convinced that product was responsible, but it does look that way. Maybe there was also something else going on in the pond that helped cause the problem. I don't know. After reading many stories like that in forums for the past 20 years I'm just a little more skeptical than the average bear.

When I don't have a good idea what's in a bottle, or have a serious need for a product, I don't use the product. And I feel even more uncomfortable telling other people the product is perfectly safe for their pond. Especially when the fish are already, or could be, in serious trouble. We already have an entire pond industry setup for doing that and they sure don't need my help.

 

[shakaho]

I have a perfect record of forgetting the hose was on in the pond...I have never once ever remembered to turn it off. It took several scares but I finally figured out $20 for parts and a little work I could solve the problem forever. I haven't looked back since and I say good riddance to hearing my wife say "do you want the pond overflowing?"

Would you describe your solution?

 

[crsublette]

Nothing is "100%" in protecting folk, especially if it is "butt simple and cheap", so none of the safeguards should be relied on "100%" of the time without proper due diligence from the owner, which proper diligence is what is often lacking whenever stuff goes wrong and is especially the cause of accidents. I am a big fan of multiple safeguards.


I have not yet read of a single ammonia binder product harming fish when instructions are properly followed. So to instantly jump to the conclusion that this particular product can harm fish, in whatever pond environment, is fear mongering thus doing a disservice to folk. Unfortunately, fear mongering is often the choice for folk that lack persuasive positioning and view words such as "chemical" or "pond product" as something that automatically assumes distrust due to the paranoia of "untested long term effects". As with anything, too much of a good thing can become a bad thing when using too much, that is much like how clean water can poison humans if we drink too much of it too fast.

Yep, most pond products do very slightly increase the pond's pH and decrease the water retention thus potentially causing significant foaming, which is why even the tiniest bit of ammonia should be properly addressed. There are many options to address the ammonia without adding any liquid pond products; however, if the owner does decide to use an ammonia binder product and properly use it (as with anything), then there is absolutely zero reason to be concerned irrelevant of the owner's pond water chemistry.


I am not surprised that you would try to suggest that the microbe-lift product "might have, could have, don't really know, but will say it was likely a big part of" the reason why the owner's fish were killed. On the same level no different than you, except actually involving logic rather than fear mongering, I can confidently say unequivocally that the microbe-lift product had absolutely nothing to do with the owner's fish's demise, as written about in post#54 of thread New strain of algae?.

I think it's cool if people want to spend the money for an in-line chlorine filter and do the maintenance. But hope they don't rely on it 100% and assume it's working, or how well it's working. So imo all the same safe guards should be kept in place. Owner's choice though of course. I just happen to prefer butt simple and cheap.

Ammonia binders are indeed very safe. However, when dealing with a pond that has no history of testing so I have no idea what's going on I don't want to be the first in line to tell people this stuff is perfectly safe. I do know there will always be a line of people around the block to tell people things are safe. I know a little about ponds, but there is a ton of stuff I don't know. I don't know the exact product the poster have tossed in their pond, almost never do. Some products don't disclose ingredients. When ingredients are disclosed and there are things like copper and ammonia in the pond I don't have the education to know how all the chemicals in specific dechlorinators and ammonia binders interact with the copper, ammonia, pH, O2 level, at the pond's current temp and pH (which are always unknown in these threads). I do however know a a little. Like these products can effect pH. Now if I knew the KH I'd be less concerned, but I never do in these threads.

If there really is high toxic ammonia and not a false reading, then of course an ammonia binder is useful.

I'm just not personally willing to stand up and say it's perfectly OK to keep dumping stuff into a pond...especially with no water quality test results, not even water temp when there are safer, easier, cheaper, less stressful alternatives. I do understand that is not a popular position in forums, but that's OK with me.

The problem is I just don't have the trust in many of these products most people have. The front of the bottom says "Fish Safe" while the MSDS, hidden in the back and only published because it's required by law, gives a much different picture. Or they don't even have to say what's in the bottle so they don't.

There was just a thread here (I think) of someone using Microbe-Lift, a completely fish safe product, says so right on the bottle. All or most of the fish dead in about an hour. Now I'm not entirely convinced that product was responsible, but it does look that way. Maybe there was also something else going on in the pond that helped cause the problem. I don't know. After reading many stories like that in forums for the past 20 years I'm just a little more skeptical than the average bear.

When I don't have a good idea what's in a bottle, or have a serious need for a product, I don't use the product. And I feel even more uncomfortable telling other people the product is perfectly safe for their pond. Especially when the fish are already, or could be, in serious trouble. We already have an entire pond industry setup for doing that and they sure don't need my help.

 

[crsublette]

Would you describe your solution?

My guess is that it involves the use of drip irrigation emitters and possibly along with a timer, which works great until much more water ever needs to be used.

Also, folk must keep in mind that Chloramine requires encountering a reducing agent in order for it to be removed. The reducing agent could be dissolved organics floating in the pond or activated carbon or other chemical compounds. Chloramine does not easily dissipate from water like chlorine does and even boiling the water will not dissipate chloramine out of the water. However, these reducing agents must first be encountered for the chloramine to be neutralized. As I said, to assume anything is 100% reliable in preventing accidents, without due diligence, then folk are asking for trouble.

 

[Waterbug]

Logic as fear mongering? OK, I'm not touching that one.

Nothing is "100%" in protecting folk, especially if it is "butt simple and cheap", so none of the safeguards should be relied on "100%" of the time without proper due diligence from the owner, which proper diligence is what is often lacking whenever stuff goes wrong and is especially the cause of accidents. I am a big fan of multiple safeguards.

True, nothing is 100% safe. But I consider some things safer than others.

I have not yet read of a single ammonia binder product harming fish when instructions are properly followed.

And yes, posters and companies often use that disclaimer. I'm sure it is very effective in a court of law.

So to instantly jump to the conclusion that this particular product can harm fish, in whatever pond environment, is fear mongering thus doing a disservice to folk.

OK, that it is just plain a personal attack. I didn't "instantly jump to the conclusion", that is false and completely made up. 20 years is not "instantly". I never said ammonia binders were harmful to fish as you imply. I said when I have no water test results, no history, that I don't think it's a good idea to add ammonia binders unless there is a reason. That's fear mongering? OK.

 

[Waterbug]

Would you describe your solution?

Kerick float valve supplied by water from a sprinkler valve on a timer. I set the sprinkler valve to be on for about 2 minutes per day, or multiple times per day for 2 minutes. I put the float valve after or in the skimmer.

But I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell you the chlorine from this will kill you bio filter and that both valves can fail and that I'm just fear mongering. Sorry, I'm just a little extra discussed with forums today.

 

[Waterbug]

Before I'm banned for sticking up to personal attacks let me say this...Years ago forums had lots of experienced people posting. People like Doc Johnson, a licensed Vet that specializes in fish care was banned from forums. From most forums today those types of people are completely absent. And there's a reason for that.

Now...why am not a fan of some people tossing ammonia binder into their ponds. It's not primarily because I think it will kill your fish. The primary reason is I don't want people going to the store to buy ammonia binder and being told by a store clerk that they should add a stress coat product too, or some pH Down, or whatever else sounds good and reasonable. The next post the OP makes won't be "should I" it will be "I added a bunch of stuff, it all said fish safe". That's my concern.

However, that's only when I'm giving advice. I don't mind one bit reading threads about people dumping chemical after chemical into their pond. It's educational to me and sometimes sorta of entertaining in a dark way.

But when I chose to give advice about sick fish, and please believe me that I almost always regret it, I take some responsibility for my actions. Fish are already stressed, posters almost never post water test results, never give a complete history, etc. If I say "sure, ammonia binder is totally safe, dump in as much as you like" and the already sick fish die then yes I could try and wipe the blood off my hands with a disclaimer "you should have followed the directions". I just can't do that. If I'm giving advice I want "first do no harm" to be my first choice. There's a lot I don't know about these chemicals, I'm not going to pretend I know it all and tell people these things are perfectly safe.

 

[crsublette]

Logic as fear mongering? OK, I'm not touching that one.

On the same level no different than you, except actually involving logic rather than fear mongering, I can confidently say unequivocally that the microbe-lift product had absolutely nothing to do with the owner's fish's demise, as written about in post#54 of thread New strain of algae?.

Hmmm.... Where did I say "logic as fear mongering"?

But just adding ammonia binder "to be safe" can hurt fish too so I hate to just dump it in.

I never said ammonia binders were harmful to fish as you imply.

Chloramine dechlorinators specifically add extra ammonia binders "just to be safe". So, yes, adding an ammonia binder just "to be safe" does not hurt the fish.

Adding ammonia binders just "to be safe" is done quite often by folk whom only use Sodium Thiosulphate, as talked about in post#17 of thread adding water, as their dechlorinator.

To flat out suggest otherwise, this causes unnecessary fear in pond owners of these products thus does them a disservice such as suggesting " just adding ammonia binder 'to be safe' can hurt fish too".

Again, for the umpteenth time, when ammonia binders are conservatively used in addition to following instructions, then they are not harmful to fish. These Ammonia Binder products are life savers for folk when properly used per the instructions, which also state the context of when to use them. Instructions are not written for CYA.

 

[crsublette]

Sheesh. WB, you sure do dish out the attitude but definitely can't take it in return. Ugh, talk about blowing things out of proportion.

 

[addy1]

Keep it civil, please, you both are knowledgeable. State your opinion, please don't attack each other.

 

[Becky]

Sheesh. WB, you sure do dish out the attitude but definitely can't take it in return. Ugh, talk about blowing things out of proportion.

Actually my reading of this conversation was that it was you who started the argument. Topic closed.