KH, pH, and don't assume everything's ducky

[Telkwa]

Morning Update -

OK, so we have a 2500 gal. pond. Pump is on the small side, only rated @ 600 gph and we're probaly only doing half that at about 3' head. 300 gal. tote as a bio-filter, filled with embossed strapping tape. Of course, the bacteria aren't doing much at this time of year, but at least the massive tote and the smallish pump allow some solids to settle out.

Western Washington has had flaky, reluctant spring weather this year. The pond is back to 48 F this morning. We use a plain old tube thermometer on a piece of string. It lays on the bottom, so this time of year, especially after a crisp night, it's reading higher than surface water. We get about 47" of rain per year, which I'm guessing pushes the pond's hardness way down. We're on a well. The well KH tests out to about 200 ppm. This seems odd to me, but our well GH is only about 50. I just tested it twice. Woulda guessed it'd be higher based on KH but what do I know?

We hadn't added any chemicals since yesterday afternoon. This morning's results:

KH = 120 ppm (I'm using the chart on the back side of the API instruction sheet)
GH = 90 ppm
pH = 8

We've added about 1.5 lb of baking soda over the course of 2 days. One lb. of Epsom salt. I haven't obtained any calcium chloride yet. We've added small amounts of sodium bisulphate twice because we're a bit concerned about high pH.

At this time the plan is to add some calcium chloride to get GH roughly where Waterbug recommended (150 - 250 ppm). I'd like to bump the KH higher too but we don't have consensus on that.

I think Waterbug's abrupt retreat serves as a warning - think before pouring. Sort of like that carpenter's quip: "Measure twice, cut once". It would be relatively easy for the average ponder to blast their pond into oblivion by lurching from one chemical to another without careful consideration of all the variables.

I'm not exactly giving myself credit for "careful consideration", but my wife will hurt me badly if I kill any fish so I have to keep that in mind...

 

[Telkwa]

Picked up some calcium chloride at our one & only pool/spa shop. You gotta be careful with this stuff - it'll get hot when mixed. Also I imagine it's a good idea to add the product to water instead of adding water to the product. The guy warned against trying to add too much at one time. The chemical will supposedly re-crystalize and drop to the bottom "like sand". He called it "carbonate fallout". Everybody's got their own stories about these chemicals!

The container was Orca brand. It said we could add 4 oz. per 500 gal. We measured out just 2 oz., and mixed it with water in a bucket. It seemed to dissolve fairly readily. I poured it in over the bubbler again, just like all the other weird stuff we've dumped in over the last few days. Will check GH tomorrow, although 2 oz. added to 2500+ gal probly won't make much difference. There's no rush. I think we've got the basic tools at hand to get hardness in the ballpark.

I was thinking about oyster shell - I bet it would be good to hang a bag of that in the pond during the winter. Since it releases slowly, and the rain slowly flushes the pond, oyster shell oughta help us stay in range.

 

[addy1]

Even when we were having bad rains the oyster shells appeared to keep the pond levels fine. I would test after really hard rains, ph, hardness all stayed in an acceptable range.

 

[Waterbug]

Even when we were having bad rains the oyster shells appeared to keep the pond levels fine. I would test after really hard rains, ph, hardness all stayed in an acceptable range.

To quote another source, Graham on Koipen who is well respected, in talking about oyster shells...

You're going to really disappointed in the results in an open pond and it doesn't fix KH...it fixes GH and has a higher pH... The shell is not capable of dissolving fast enough to keep up with acid rain or even a lot of water changes. If your fish load is heavy it's even worse.

My well water comes out at 6.0 with a KH and 200 pounds of whole shell could barely keep things up in 2000 gallons indoor holding tank. Outside it was a joke

 

[Waterbug]

I think Waterbug's abrupt retreat serves as a warning - think before pouring. Sort of like that carpenter's quip: "Measure twice, cut once". It would be relatively easy for the average ponder to blast their pond into oblivion by lurching from one chemical to another without careful consideration of all the variables.

In 10 or 15 years posting in forums you're the first person ever to reconsider your actions. I'm completely blown away. My opinion of the human mind has grown 10 fold. Thank you. And just to be clear...I mean that with no sarcasm at all.

If I could make a suggestion, create a new thread for the salt discussion in the treatment section. It can get messy trying to discuss several things on one thread.

Thanks again.

 

[Telkwa]

Jeez, WB, I thought that comment about you retreating would make you mad.

I sincerely appreciate the time & effort that people such as yourself put into helping others. It would be foolish to ask for help, then ignore the responses! I'm bookmarking the Koiphen website and will try to soak up some of the imparted wisdom.

I'm holding off on salt until we get KH/GH in the ballpark, then watch the fishies for a few weeks. Your comment about their immune systems starting back up again made an impression.

Morning Report, 4-13-12

Temp = 46 F
GH = 72
KH = unchanged.

I tested GH twice, same results both times. This indicates a drop in hardness since last test. These test kits are so coarse that I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. BTW, how many of you know that there's a difference between precision and accuracy? We added 2 oz. of calcium chloride yesterday, not enuf to make much difference. Will add a coupla oz. (maybe 3) today, tomorrow and see if we can push GH in the right direction. According to WB's initial direction, we can add more Epsom salt. (have added 1 lb. of Epsom to a 2500+ gal system).

 

[Waterbug]

Jeez, WB, I thought that comment about you retreating would make you mad.

Seemed fair and accurate to me. Thinking myself the perfect human being evaporated a long time ago and my actions since have only confirmed that view.

I'm bookmarking the Koiphen website and will try to soak up some of the imparted wisdom.

In 7.5 years I've made 13 posts on Koipen, but read thousands (literally). Pretty much everything I know about ponds I learned there. They don't really get water gardens, so it's not a perfect source for me. Much of the info does have to be tweaked to fit the needs of water gardens, but the basic science and debate is excellent.

Temp = 46 F
GH = 72
KH = unchanged.

If you could in the future please post the actual value instead of "unchanged". I lose track.

These test kits are so coarse that I'm not gonna lose sleep over it.

Bingo.

we can add more Epsom salt. (have added 1 lb. of Epsom to a 2500+ gal system).

Right. And this goes back to the test kit issue...I limit amounts to set levels, like 2.5 lb of Epsom per 2500 gal. If GH still tested low I'd start looking for backup tests, like a new kit, read the direction more closely, see if pH or temperature is affecting the test, send out a sample, etc. These chemicals do increase the salt level, although not much. So a bit of prudence is called for. There is a lot of room though. For example a person would have to add enough baking soda to push KH to 10,000 ppm before salt was high enough to kill fish.

Just as testing is used to verify the amounts of chemical added the amounts of chemicals added should also verify the testing.

 

[Waterbug]

It would be foolish to ask for help, then ignore the responses!

OK, I just had to say something about this because to me it's the most interesting aspect of online forums. And only recently do I think I've figured it out.

I have long seen people new to ponds ask a question, get a few dozen responses and then proceed to pick the most expensive, most complex and most unlikely to work. I mean like 90% of the time. I've kept posting answers to such questions just to try and gain some insight into their thinking, and therefore my own thinking when I'm learning a new subject, skill or hobby.

Telling fact from myth is impossible...
My first theory was that a person with no experience has no way of telling fact from myth. Myths always sound better (they must to survive). I still think that's part of it. But recently I think there's more.

Lazy
If a person posts "my pond is green. how do i clear it?" what are they really asking? Obviously they could've used Google and found about 100,000 posts in pond forums asking the same question with a million total answers. The poster must not want to go to that kind of effort. Therefore any answer that requires any kind of reading or effort is going to be completely unacceptable. That leaves answers like buy barley extract, bacteria in a bottle, etc. Simple and easy.

What is the immediate problem?
But I don't think this is pure laziness either. What I think many posters are really asking is "I'm really stressed and unhappy today about my green pond. What will make these feelings go away?" The immediate problem isn't the green pond, it's their feelings about the situation. "I spent all this time and money and am now depressed it isn't as I pictured." In that context the easy myth cures are real answers and they really work. They instantly reduce stress and keep it low for the time it take for the product to arrive and the 6 to 8 weeks the product always claims it needs "to work". By that time most people have stopped caring whether the pond is green or not. A small percentage come back to start down the path of actually trying to solve a problem.

I don't think it just foolish, or lazy to ask for help, then ignore the responses. It's more interesting than that, at least to me. Sorry to get off topic.

 

[Telkwa]

4-14-12

Morning Test
temp = 48 F
GH = 72 (4 drops to change color) unchanged
KH = 125 (7 drops to change color) unchanged from the last coupla tests

I splashed 3 oz. of calcium chloride this morning. That's 3 additions of calcium chloride, but only about 7 oz. total so far so we're being pretty conservative.

Several good points, WB, keep 'em coming! I need to keep track of cumulative chemical additions. Relying on a cheap test kit, and failing to track the cumulative amounts of chemicals added, is a recipe for disaster.

Another thought that occured to me after reading your posts...I could make a test mix of calcium chloride in a bucket. Try to make a 100 ppm mix, and test it. Then add what I think should make it 200 ppm, and see if the test kit is agreeing with my math or not. We have a triple-beam balance scale, so I should be able to do this if I just take some time and do some conversions and volume calculations.

Interesting thoughts on forums and people. I've got another one for you. I'm a newbie here, but 2000 posts on Ubuntu Forums under the tag Bartender. I've come to the conclusion that people want to hear from a real live person before they'll try something that a thousand posts have already described. If just one person will respond and explain again what's been explained before ad infinitum, the original poster will then finally try it. Somehow a warm body writing back is better than piles of previous posts. Your comments about fact vs. myth may be applicable. When you're new to Linux, it's impossible to say what's real and what's myth!!

 

[Telkwa]

4-15-12

Temp = 48 F
GH = 72 (unchanged)
KH = 125 (unchanged)

It's hard not to get impatient. Still trying to get a bump upwards in GH, and I wouldn't mind KH a little higher. Added 3 oz. of calcium chloride, 4 oz. of Epsom salt, and 4 oz. of baking soda this morning after testing.

Have not yet done the volume/concentration homework and tried to make a 'batch in a bucket' to test the test kit's accuracy. Even then it won't be precise because none of these chemicals are 100% 'pure'.

 

[sissy]

keep it simple and simple works ,healthy looking fish ,healthy looking water .I test water and have it tested at a pet store where they give me a read out .Lost one fish and he jumped out last spring ,my fault ,no netting on yet .To much change in water and fish will surely die .Oh and forgot baby fish that got sucked into filter

 

[Telkwa]

sissy, I'm glad you have a system that works with little fuss. However, in our situation (pond size, pump size, filtration, fish load, etc.) and in our location/climate (well water chemistry, 4' of rainfall & its chemistry, temperatures, etc.) I believe that we were not paying close enough attention. A KH and GH of nearly zero can't be good for the fishies.

Patti and me first started a pond thinking that it would be kinda fun and a stress reliever. I certainly went into it with vast misconceptions about digging a hole, making it waterproof, and kicking back to enjoy. If we ever get to that goal of enjoying the pond instead of worrying about something it will be a day to celebrate.

 

[lenny jewell]

i have found that ponds to me are fun , not only the satisfaction of looking at a clean "well maintainted pond) but the adventure of getting there , if the water is green find a natural solution , if the ph is high lower it if it can be done naturally , if not be careful and listen to experts with good advice . , (admittedly i am now just learning about other issues ammonia carbonate nitrite nitrate all these things) Each pond is a micro habitat each habitat has its own issues , finding problem/issues learning about them and the solving them is all fun to me , the sitting back over a crystal clear pond and enjoying a cup of coffee and or whatever you want to drink, and bragging about how beautiful the pond looks is just a by product , the education the experience and the care that has achieved that picture is the best part for me ... just sayin' ..
And i would like to thank waterbug for his willingness to share his knowledge in a modest and careful way and not just throw out simple phrases tht only experienced experts understand , so waterbug , thank you for your lessons they are heeded and are very helpful..

 

[Telkwa]

4-16-12

Temp = 50 F
KH = 140 (8 drops to turn color) This is a small bump upwards from the day before.
GH = 90 (5 drops to turn color) Same thing; a small bump upwards.
pH = 8+, possibly closer to 9. The PondMaster test kit has one color for 8, then another for 9. Not particularly helpful, but the test looked closer to the unmistakably blue '9' than the teal '8'.

At this point I'm open for suggestions on stopping the pH rise. If I understand the last few days of discussion we need to stop adding baking soda (raises KH) and continue with the CaCl2 (gettin' fancy here, CaCl2 is calcium chloride, although the '2' should be smaller) and the MgSO4 (Epsom salt; again, the 4 should be smaller). These two raise GH, which should suppress (buffer?) pH.

Correct?

4 oz. of CaCl2 going in today. Also 4 oz. MgSO4. My wife and I agreed that if GH up means pH down, then that's the direction we want to go for the next coupla days.

 

[HARO]

H2so4 works well to lower Ph! :razz:
John