Mmathis
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What size lens setting? Does it move? And does it have to be stained to see it?Dave 54 said:
MYSTERIOUS "LUMP" ON GOLDFISH
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Mmathis
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THIS IS IT!!!!
YELLOW GRUBS!
I drained the QT and was able to catch the Rosy Red in there that has the same lump! Well, the RR actually has 2 lumps -- one on its side and one in or on its gill. Using an insulin syringe (very tiny needle) managed to lightly prick the skin where the one was on the side. Used a Q-Tip to push on the lump, and a little white worm or grub-looking thing popped out!
Ran and put it under the microscope, but it's too big to see it all under lowest power. It looks just like this video, though! I guess when I mashed on the gold fish's side the other day, without knowing it, I must have induced the critter to pop out.
For the RR, he was OK, but think I kept him out of the water too long. He got some bubble-therapy
. I dabbed the place where the grub was with H2O2, then put some Neosporin on it. I have some Biobandage ordered, that should come tomorrow. I didn't know what to do for the one in/on its gill, so just dabbed it with H2O2 and applied the Neo as well.
So, how is this treated, pond-wide? Snails are essential in this life-cycle, but apparently new ones (grubs) only hatch when they come in contact with the GI tract of birds (take THAT GBH!). Sooo..... I have snails. I guess every pond does. Do you just wait until a fish becomes inhabited, then remove the grub?
YELLOW GRUBS!
I drained the QT and was able to catch the Rosy Red in there that has the same lump! Well, the RR actually has 2 lumps -- one on its side and one in or on its gill. Using an insulin syringe (very tiny needle) managed to lightly prick the skin where the one was on the side. Used a Q-Tip to push on the lump, and a little white worm or grub-looking thing popped out!
Ran and put it under the microscope, but it's too big to see it all under lowest power. It looks just like this video, though! I guess when I mashed on the gold fish's side the other day, without knowing it, I must have induced the critter to pop out.
For the RR, he was OK, but think I kept him out of the water too long. He got some bubble-therapy
. I dabbed the place where the grub was with H2O2, then put some Neosporin on it. I have some Biobandage ordered, that should come tomorrow. I didn't know what to do for the one in/on its gill, so just dabbed it with H2O2 and applied the Neo as well.So, how is this treated, pond-wide? Snails are essential in this life-cycle, but apparently new ones (grubs) only hatch when they come in contact with the GI tract of birds (take THAT GBH!). Sooo..... I have snails. I guess every pond does. Do you just wait until a fish becomes inhabited, then remove the grub?
Mmathis
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I don't know WHY I'm so excited -- it's really gross, and it's still a problem for the fish. But maybe not quite a death sentence any more......?
HTH
Howard
You have every right to be excited!
Wow Maggie I hope you are right and I am NOT saying you are wrong.. The one thing that does not fit is that your bumps open naturally and I am reading that the yellow grub stay with the fish till it is eaten. I am not confident that the standard life cycle is the only one.
Do you have a treatment plan ?
Wow Maggie I hope you are right and I am NOT saying you are wrong.. The one thing that does not fit is that your bumps open naturally and I am reading that the yellow grub stay with the fish till it is eaten. I am not confident that the standard life cycle is the only one.
Do you have a treatment plan ?
Mmathis
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Well, the only lump that opened " naturally," happened after I had rubbed it [on the fantail] trying to see what it felt like. It was also about that time that I started salt dips & added salt to the QT. Not saying that precipitated the "lump" to open, because I don't know if it would even have that effect, but it could have.... And when I pricked the RR's skin today, it didn't take much effort at all to get the little "grubby" out.HTH said:
So, while I'm really HOPING that's what it is, I'm not excluding other possibilities.
Treatment plan. Gosh, you would go there...... Well, for now, nothing except isolating fish with "lumps," and maintaining good water quality. If any more lumps appear [there's still a RR in the pond that needs to come out], I'll see if they're removable like the one today. And of course, topical TX for the fish with lump-removals [Neosporin until my order of Bio-bandage arrives tomorrow].
As for the pond, from what I've read, there is no treatment. And the only way their life-cycle can be completed is by going through the "bird-host" stage, and/or the "snail-host" stage. So it occurred to me to remove the snails and keep the GBH's away [yea, right]. But snails "happen" even when we don't add them our selves. So, for now -- no treatment plan except what I've already stated, unless someone out there has some ideas.
For the sake of my fish (and my sanity), I'm open to suggestions!
Maggie the thrematoda is a monogenetic fluke which is a very productive little blighter who has generations of pregnant offspring and can cause havoc if numbers become to great on your fish and in your pond...
You have the gill fluke and the body fluke they are both similar in their makeup and resemblence and are hard to tell apart but there are differences.
They virtually hang out near the same place on a koi or goldfish i;e the gill area for the gill fluke.
The body fluke pefares to live just behind the gills on the fishes body both have nasty looking hooks to hold onto the fishes body and are not smooth like the video clip you have posted...
"However they do not come from cysts as they only cover themselves with a layer of slime coat totally disimilar to a cyst".
I had gill flukes a number years ago and the treatment was an organophosphate called Superverm or Fluke M by Kusuri.
Sadly Superverm doesnt like goldfish "it will kill them dead" and should therefore only be used to treat koi.
Left untereated it can and does take fatalities not sure of the treatment for goldfish you'd have to find out just what to use.
Sadly I think we are barking up the wrong tree here and should go back to the start again .
I know what your seeing but it doesnt match up to what is being said by the good Dr Johnson nor the authors of the other book I'm going through to check your findings out .
Believe me I wish you were right here I really do .
rgrds
Dave
You have the gill fluke and the body fluke they are both similar in their makeup and resemblence and are hard to tell apart but there are differences.
They virtually hang out near the same place on a koi or goldfish i;e the gill area for the gill fluke.
The body fluke pefares to live just behind the gills on the fishes body both have nasty looking hooks to hold onto the fishes body and are not smooth like the video clip you have posted...
"However they do not come from cysts as they only cover themselves with a layer of slime coat totally disimilar to a cyst".
I had gill flukes a number years ago and the treatment was an organophosphate called Superverm or Fluke M by Kusuri.
Sadly Superverm doesnt like goldfish "it will kill them dead" and should therefore only be used to treat koi.
Left untereated it can and does take fatalities not sure of the treatment for goldfish you'd have to find out just what to use.
Sadly I think we are barking up the wrong tree here and should go back to the start again .
I know what your seeing but it doesnt match up to what is being said by the good Dr Johnson nor the authors of the other book I'm going through to check your findings out .
Believe me I wish you were right here I really do .
rgrds
Dave
Mmathis
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Dave, the little "grubby" critter that I popped out of the RR was EXACTLY the same as what's on the video, even down to the triangular shaped (hard to see in the vid, but is noted in other pics as well as descriptions of this organism) "organ" (for evacuation/reproduction?) behind what I took to be its head area. What I read about the gill/body flukes is that you need a microscope to see them. This "grub" was not only highly visible, but it was so large that I couldn't view it at the lowest power on the microscope. But, with the scope, could easily make out its various body parts as it moved around on the slide. And it wasn't "attached." Once the cyst was pricked open, it came out easily with gentle prodding via Q-Tip.
This is called Clinostomum marginatum and is classified as a digenetic trematode. Not the same thing as the skin or gill fluke. What I read about it says it does form into a cyst. It waits in that form, embedded in the skin or muscle, until the fish is eaten by a bird (next stage in its reproduction). The biggest problem with the CM is that in food-fish, the cysts make the meat unappetizing (works for me), though if properly frozen/cooked is harmless for consumption.
As far as the effects on the fish, that depends on the amount of infestation and the location of the cyst. Obviously, one on or near the gills can cause respiratory problems. Too many, and if there are any internally, can weaken the fish, impair its food intake, or lead to secondary infection, etc. I couldn't find much info on long-term effects, as the fish that were studied didn't die due to the presence of the CM. Most of the time, the CM will tend to embed either on or near the gills, or at the base of the dorsal or caudal fins.
There apparently is no treatment other than stopping the life-cycle by eliminating the snails. The main vector-host is the "ramshorn snail," but though I couldn't find for sure, there are probably other snails as well. And I actually do have a few of those fellas in the pond, not on purpose, though -- but they're going bye-bye now, as I catch them. There are lots of articles regarding studies done on the [distribution and economic effects of the] CM, and some studies regarding snail control. In general, control of the bird-host stage is almost impossible, 'cause even with physical deterrents to keep the birds from getting the fish, you're still going to have bird poop present (fecal fly-overs).
Not saying there isn't something ELSE going on, but am saying that in this particular case, this critter was a "yellow grub."
This is called Clinostomum marginatum and is classified as a digenetic trematode. Not the same thing as the skin or gill fluke. What I read about it says it does form into a cyst. It waits in that form, embedded in the skin or muscle, until the fish is eaten by a bird (next stage in its reproduction). The biggest problem with the CM is that in food-fish, the cysts make the meat unappetizing (works for me), though if properly frozen/cooked is harmless for consumption.
As far as the effects on the fish, that depends on the amount of infestation and the location of the cyst. Obviously, one on or near the gills can cause respiratory problems. Too many, and if there are any internally, can weaken the fish, impair its food intake, or lead to secondary infection, etc. I couldn't find much info on long-term effects, as the fish that were studied didn't die due to the presence of the CM. Most of the time, the CM will tend to embed either on or near the gills, or at the base of the dorsal or caudal fins.
There apparently is no treatment other than stopping the life-cycle by eliminating the snails. The main vector-host is the "ramshorn snail," but though I couldn't find for sure, there are probably other snails as well. And I actually do have a few of those fellas in the pond, not on purpose, though -- but they're going bye-bye now, as I catch them. There are lots of articles regarding studies done on the [distribution and economic effects of the] CM, and some studies regarding snail control. In general, control of the bird-host stage is almost impossible, 'cause even with physical deterrents to keep the birds from getting the fish, you're still going to have bird poop present (fecal fly-overs).
Not saying there isn't something ELSE going on, but am saying that in this particular case, this critter was a "yellow grub."
Not doubting you Maggie as we are both learning from this, I just stated what I could find under that heading spelt with an a on the end not an e Thrematoda not your spelling of thrematobe and that is what I came up with.
I've had my more advanced books on Ornamental fish health out (these are teaching level books) and can find no mention whatsoever of a thrematobe in any of them the best of them being the Fundimentals of Ornamental Fish Health by Helen E Roberts ISBN 9790813814018 who is herself American.
I would have though it would have come up in this exellent book but there is nothing under that heading nothing .
I could if you wish hit the heaviest of Text books of fish health if you wish to see what i'll come up with (I have two at marine biology level), you never know I might hit lucky in them.
The interpet Manuel of fish health shows nice drawings of each route of infection from fish to bird to pond bird to snail to pond etc but only mentions thrematoda which is not what you report sso I'm at a total loss here these are recent books The interpet one was update a while ago but nothing.
Can you give me the link to this online so I can read up on it myself as this has me most interested in your findings.
As I said to Howard just yesterday this hobby is forever in flux changing as more is found out about it and I must say this one is really niggling me as to the lack of mention.......
rgrds
Dave
I've had my more advanced books on Ornamental fish health out (these are teaching level books) and can find no mention whatsoever of a thrematobe in any of them the best of them being the Fundimentals of Ornamental Fish Health by Helen E Roberts ISBN 9790813814018 who is herself American.
I would have though it would have come up in this exellent book but there is nothing under that heading nothing .
I could if you wish hit the heaviest of Text books of fish health if you wish to see what i'll come up with (I have two at marine biology level), you never know I might hit lucky in them.
The interpet Manuel of fish health shows nice drawings of each route of infection from fish to bird to pond bird to snail to pond etc but only mentions thrematoda which is not what you report sso I'm at a total loss here these are recent books The interpet one was update a while ago but nothing.
Can you give me the link to this online so I can read up on it myself as this has me most interested in your findings.
As I said to Howard just yesterday this hobby is forever in flux changing as more is found out about it and I must say this one is really niggling me as to the lack of mention.......
rgrds
Dave
Here is some information from the internet
http://www.maine.gov/ifw/fishing/health/vol2issue6.htm
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3222189?uid=3739256&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102545998407
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10364_52259_10950-26966--,00.html
I don't know if the following link will work, it is to a specific section of a free preview of the book Fundamentals of Ornamental Fish Health which seems to be a fish vet level teaching book
http://books.google.com/books?id=Zw...a=X&ei=ZELpUZ7eD4ze8wSpnIGADQ&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw
Oh, and an interesting blog I found, check out the resources linked on the right side - who says you can't find current relevant doctoral level knowledge on the internet! http://blogs.oregonstate.edu/wetvet/
http://www.maine.gov/ifw/fishing/health/vol2issue6.htm
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3222189?uid=3739256&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102545998407
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10364_52259_10950-26966--,00.html
I don't know if the following link will work, it is to a specific section of a free preview of the book Fundamentals of Ornamental Fish Health which seems to be a fish vet level teaching book
http://books.google.com/books?id=Zw...a=X&ei=ZELpUZ7eD4ze8wSpnIGADQ&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw
Oh, and an interesting blog I found, check out the resources linked on the right side - who says you can't find current relevant doctoral level knowledge on the internet! http://blogs.oregonstate.edu/wetvet/
Mmathis
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Thanks, Diane! Very similar to the articles I read. Maybe it's something specific to the continental US -- and looks like there's not a lot of documented info regarding ornamental pond fish.
Mmathis
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And, Dave, by all means, keep digging!
HTH
Howard
This is not helpful but.
These snails seem to come about by spontaneous generation. My wife had picked about 2 sq inches of duckweed, It must have had snail eggs because my duckweed culture has tiny snails in it. You do not see much of them in the pond because the goldfish eat the small snails.
These snails seem to come about by spontaneous generation. My wife had picked about 2 sq inches of duckweed, It must have had snail eggs because my duckweed culture has tiny snails in it. You do not see much of them in the pond because the goldfish eat the small snails.
Mmathis
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Yeah, don't think you can get rid of snails. I was just pulling the teeny ones out of my SKIPPY and feeding them to my fish.
Hmmm.... Now I wonder what effect, if any, these snails would have on the fish IF they (the snails) were infected with the "snail-stage" of this parasite.
Hmmm.... Now I wonder what effect, if any, these snails would have on the fish IF they (the snails) were infected with the "snail-stage" of this parasite.
Diane may thanx for the link sadly it didnt come out right but I have the book and rather than look at the back with everything thats in there I'll be checking out the front to see what this ugly mother id all about.
However I'll be doing it after Sunday (show day)....
I'm wondering if there is a chemical that will take out the snails if Maggie isnt squemish
I thought it had to be something to do with the US as I said.
This is the problem when buying books from both sides of the pond, I'm acctualy glad I was wrong and that Maggie decided to take a peek at what the insides where like.
Weve all learned from this which is the most important thing but we can only work with what we see in the photographs provided and compair with what we have to hand,however spelling is another issue it has to be right otherwise we all end up in a mess.
I for one wouldnt like these things on my koi nor you your fish .
Maggie did you find out if they can attack Turtles , the book I have on Tortoises and Terrapins doesnt say anything about it Maggie do you have this book ?
It's Propper title is A Complete Guide to Tortoisis and Terrapins its a TFH book, the Authors Name is Jo Cobb ISBN 0866222758 .
I did have anoher one which I lent out and have never seen since
I'll bet you didnt know we used to keep sliders lol we buy books on everything we keep as I said knowledge is good to to have and to use you'll be supprised what can befall your turtles check it out if you havent already got it.
Popped onto Amazon to see if it was on threre and came up with this book :-
Looks good ( far more information that the book we have, buy it as it may well be a life saver some day.
See if you can get on Amazon US it your side of the pond it would cost £37.00 UK not sure of US exchange rate .
rgrds
Dave
However I'll be doing it after Sunday (show day)....
I'm wondering if there is a chemical that will take out the snails if Maggie isnt squemish
I thought it had to be something to do with the US as I said.
This is the problem when buying books from both sides of the pond, I'm acctualy glad I was wrong and that Maggie decided to take a peek at what the insides where like.
Weve all learned from this which is the most important thing but we can only work with what we see in the photographs provided and compair with what we have to hand,however spelling is another issue it has to be right otherwise we all end up in a mess.
I for one wouldnt like these things on my koi nor you your fish .
Maggie did you find out if they can attack Turtles , the book I have on Tortoises and Terrapins doesnt say anything about it Maggie do you have this book ?
It's Propper title is A Complete Guide to Tortoisis and Terrapins its a TFH book, the Authors Name is Jo Cobb ISBN 0866222758 .
I did have anoher one which I lent out and have never seen since
I'll bet you didnt know we used to keep sliders lol we buy books on everything we keep as I said knowledge is good to to have and to use you'll be supprised what can befall your turtles check it out if you havent already got it.
Popped onto Amazon to see if it was on threre and came up with this book :-
Looks good ( far more information that the book we have, buy it as it may well be a life saver some day.
See if you can get on Amazon US it your side of the pond it would cost £37.00 UK not sure of US exchange rate .
rgrds
Dave