New pond construction. The Water Garden Pond

sissy

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my neighbors do them early spring they told me and then keep them closer to the barn and also near shade so they do not get skin burn or get rashes .I guess by what they say they are more prone to injury and diseases after they have been shaved .He even said buzzards will try to attack them when they are shaved and laying down ,they think they are sick ,seems scarey to me .
 

j.w

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OK, so small ostriches are emu, and small Llamas are alpacas, right? I agree with JW, that is the cutest one! And, if there is a herd close to JW, maybe you need to go and ask them if they have any for sale and find out if Larkin can drive up to WA to get his herd started! LOL Not sure what a person looks for in an alpaca. I know my sister in AZ wanted me to start raising them, she was going to foot the bill to get them started, and I had the land ... wait, that was miniature cows! LOL Oh well, small animals of some sort. I think she wanted the alpacas, but I told her they take a lot of grooming or I would need to learn to shear them for the wool, I assume. I wonder if there is any money in the wool, Larkin? Or, is the money in selling the animals to other small farmers? I've not heard if they are sold as meat, probably just the wool, I would guess. Are they more a novelty or a money making small breed?
All are different CE. Llama's are Llama's and Alpaca's are Alpaca's. Ditto on the Ostrich, Emu deal.
Taken off the web:
ALPACA AND LLAMA DIFFERENCES

Many people confuse the Alpaca and Llama. They are both Camelids from South America. We understand how confusing it may be, but there are distinct differences.
The alpaca is a fine fiber bearing animal and not really used for anything else. A Llama, also, has fiber that can be used but it is much coarser, although it does have a soft undercoat that is fine and is used by spinners.
Alpacas are very much herd animals and must be with their herdmates. Alpacas that are kept by themselves do not usually do well. You should always have at least two alpacas together for companionship.
Llamas are more independent and often you will see only one llama on a farm. A llama by its self will often fair quite well.
A Llama is a much larger animal. They have been used as guard animals for alpacas. It is really not recommened though. Get a dog for guarding. Their larger size makes them great as a pack animal. They are also used for pulling carts.
An alpaca is approximately half the size of a llama. Too small to use for carting or packing. Although, we have heard of people using two alpacas to pull a cart. An alpacas main function is to grow beautiful fleece.
They have other physical differences besides their size. An alpaca has straight ears. A llama has curved ears, often called banana shaped. A llamas back is straighter which makes them good for packing.
They both spit. This may be a myth, but we have heard that Llamas will spit purposefully at humans. Alpacas usually don't direct their spit at you, but you can get caught in a spit fest between two alpacas. We don't own Llamas, so can not verify that this is true.
Here is a video from a different site explaining some differences:

 

sissy

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The ones they have over here she calls teddy bear ones and they have such cute faces .
 

fishin4cars

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The wool of the alpaca is fairly marketable, There are shearer that will come to your farm, shear the animals and buy the wool. With a small herd ofay 10+ animals the wool will cover most of the cost of the upkeep of the animals themselves. Breeding and getting to the point of selling small mini herds is where the profit starts showing up. Each animal is DNA certified so tracking the breed is one of the most monitored and tracked of all farm animals kept in the US. A typical mid range Alpaca is about $3000 - $10,000 each, but like koi there are exceptions that may sell for far more than that. As JW pointed out in the video the Alpaca are smaller, they are cleaner animals, they do there business in one place and there is almost no scent to the manure, making it very marketable for fertilizer. The manure called beans, and a small can be used several times to make water mixes for feeding plants as it will be 5/5/5 similar to miracle grow. They are not raised for food which is something the wife pretty dead set on. The tax break for a Alpaca farm is really good, Since the kids are now all grown we could use some tax break for sure and I really don't think Koi will make much profit here as a farm but I still want to try and raise some to see how they do, well either koi or goldfish, still not sure on that one yet.
 

fishin4cars

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Sissy, the Suri type have dread locks, that wool is the most valuable as it makes more softer yet stronger yarn, the Huacaya is the Teddy Bear. and they do feel like teddy bears, They can be brushed for showing but just for collecting wool the only brushing needed it to keep leaves or briars cleared out of the face as this can cut or damage their eyes. I personally don't care for Suri, Oh and I have yet to have a Alpaca spit on me, I've seen them spit but usually it's a pecking order thing and they don't spray each other they spray toward the ground, Llamas will spit directly at you and they stand face high. UGH!!!!
 
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Our friend had someone who came out to sheer his... I guess she was making custom made sweaters with it...

As to raising the koi, try it on a small scale. We are, mainly for fun, but we did just buy another batch of babies for the variety... I cant keep as many as we have, so was thinking of selling the excess via Craigs List, and maybe a few to some of hubby's existing pond clients, as there is just no variety available locally... Hubby told me today that he sold a bunch come spring. One of his clients has a so called professionally installed pond (clueless homeowners have superior ponds) that is "maybe" 6-7' long, 30" wide, and a foot deep, that is a nightmare ... such a hack job... well, she has been asking for an estimate of what to expect come spring when he does a real pond for them... he hasnt given one, as it would depend on what she wants as we get closer to doing it... today she asked if he could keep it under $5k... hell ya... can put something really nice in under that budget given her yard is just a postage stamp. Cant wait for him to do that project... super nice people who have been taken advantage of.
 

fishin4cars

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DIY, I roughly figure $1 per gallon, give or take, That can include some landscaping or expanded filtration. The two patio we built this year averaged out about $1.50 per gallon even after the long drawn out mess up, Under 5 k can make a heck of a nice pond and a dramatic look as well. Sounds like a fun project and a good place to home fish you really want to watch grow. It will be be good for me working at the store as maybe I can move a few through there and a few on craigslist.
 
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As a DIY you dont factor a labor rate in. This is an awesome client, who is actually our contact for one of our commercial accounts, who gives us a lot of referrals, so he always give her a fantastic deal (half the normal man labor rate), but realistically, I dont see being able to stretch much over 1500 gallons. Most likely a simple kidney shape, with a centered waterfall on the inside line. Material costs are insane here. Simple rocks cost an arm and a leg (average about $350 per pallet), that's why ours isnt done. We can wait for free. He did one pond about 10 years ago now, the pond itself is only about 4500 gallons (plus a river/fall combo) and with all the surrounding hardscape/landscape, the MATERIALS were over $40,000. The total project was done in three stages.
 

Ruben Miranda

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Hello
5K for a pond and all the fixings that is dam cheap.
Around here you would get a pond the size of a bath tub with a water fall a couple of fish and a Lilly maybe.
And you guys can do a full pond for less and still make a profit.

Way to cheap

Ruben
 
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There will be very little going into other landscaping, the yard is that small. Other than the pond itself, maybe a couple yards of loam and a bit of grass seed for clean up. This is such an awsome client that some thought will go into giving them the most bang for the money. The house is small, in an average neighborhood, so elaborate wouldnt fit... basic rock to hide the liner, and filtration (aka the water fall). We call them tub filters, but its like a skippy filter. Cheap, low maintence and effective. They were charged highway robbery for a poorly installed joke that does not work as it should. It is not salvagable at all. She wont tell us who put it in... I personally want to slap them! It isnt hard to dig a whole and drop a liner in, and even that part is screwed up. Running the numbers, we need to be able to get it done in under 48 total man hours (3 days, 2 guys). Next time I am going there, will try to remember to grab the camera and post pictures. It really is that bad.
 

fishin4cars

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Do it your self I could put together a really nice 2,500-3,000, gallon pond. Add rock or similar border, add a 25-30 ft stream and water fall and even add a few plants and fish for under 5k. But the key to that is Do it your self. Start adding labor, trips back and forth, etc and 5k would run out very fast. I sat down and looked over all the figures on our build this year, including the contractor, paid labor, rock, liner, material, pumps and filters, I'm right at $40k and that includes the patio, gazebo, and lighting. Most was done by me so my labor isn't in that cost. Add my labor in and who knows how much this thing would have cost me. Your project needs completing in 48 man hours? I would guess I have in the ball park of 300+ man hours not in that figure in our build and Still have some work that needs to be done that will add another 5k-7k to the total when done. But still that's two ponds totaling almost 20,000 gallons so that's $2 a gallon take away my contractors goof up and all the legal mess with him and get the cost of repairing refunded and I would be back under 40k with the entire build. But that hasn't happened yet and I wouldn't hold my breath counting on that. Building for a client, or someone else, and actually getting off the job site making a profit? Yes I agree, 5k isn't going to be a very big pond....
 
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Wow, then I did pretty well! I have a 4200 gal pond and a 2700 gal pond, waterfall, stream, bought all my rocks (except the ones around bog and waterfall my daughter brought back from UT), landscaping included, there is no way I have more or much more than $6,000 in them! Go me! LOL I guess rock at $150 per 2 ton for flagstone and $250/2 ton for other rock was not bad at all then. Liner was purchased and delivered from local lumber yard. Pumps were bought on Ebay. I feel much better about my investment now.
 
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From the perspective of being a business owner, a pond really isnt that expensive of a project, it is all the basic landscaping and hardscape that kills you.

Here's a few pics of one of the most expensive pond projects we did that I have in this computer. The pond itself is only about 5000 gallons, plus the little river/falls. The "goals" were some natural looking flower beds (aka NOT FANCY), a basic pond, and a sitting area into a sloped area that was ugly as hell... As you go through the pics, it is easy to see that $40,000 in materials was a very conservative number, and not even remotely exagerated. It also doesnt address the labor bill for 6 WEEKS of 2-4 guys on site.

This is a before pic. This is looking at the street (busy) with the house behind me.
Eldredgebefore.jpg


This is the final (so far anyways)... It's too bad everything isnt in bloom at the time I took this one. Other than the wooden fence, and the trees that remained from the before picture, it you see it, we did it (except for the 2 chairs and the little statue). The wall in the background, the stone walls, the pond, the plantings, lawn w/irrigation, stepping stones, etc, etc, etc...
Eldredge2010.jpg


Close up of the steps... approaching the pond... hard to see but the stacked river rock walls (dry laid and acting as retaining walls) are at two heights to build up to the patio area.
Eldredge5.jpg


Same area, just at a different angle..
Eldredge4.jpg


Patio area is buried river rock with mint planted between them.
Eldredge6.jpg


Not the best pic of the pond... The liner is hidden by rocks motared in place... this client did not want to see liner... He HATES doing this. The lighting was bad, but if you look at the left edge of the pic, you can also see more river rock used for steps and a walkway to get around the pond...
Eldredge8.jpg


This is just a pic at the top of the river... Oh, that bridge wasnt our idea... it was a gift from the neighbor, we only put it together and put it where the client wanted it.
Eldredge10.jpg


And this is from the top of the river, looking down to the pond... Barely in view is a wishing well that hides the pump.
Eldredge11.jpg


The original pond (without the river) was installed either in 2001, or 2002... and has NEVER had a partial water change of ANY type, for ANY reason after it was okay'd for fish additions, it has NEVER needed medications, nor has a fish EVER died in it from lack of water changes. Over the years, they have lost a few fish to raccoons, but the only problem they have had is in over population due to spawning, and every couple of years we remove a few dozen fish for them. The ONLY things this client does for this pond is feed their fish, and add water for evaporation. We check the pond for them every spring when we turn on their lawn irrigation system, and in the fall, rake out the leaves/prune the lilies when we blow out (shut off) their lawn irrigation system. Filters run 24/7, year round. We havent even had to replace the pump yet.

Now for our yard... I have no clue of what we have invested so far into our backyard. We only started it this spring (had to get through all the house construction stuff first). The present 6500 gallon pond was "slapped in" so we had "something" this year (and the other pond/bog, well, it seemed like a good place to stick one LOL), as we were both really frustrated with having to wait. As any ponder knows, you cant go from having ponds to having none. This is how it came to be that we have the 750 in the basement. We had to put our existing fish somewhere. Back to outside... Where the REAL pond is going, has a major delay. To be able to properly set the grades in the backyard, the walls and patios need to go in first. Problem is the materials alone JUST for the walls and pavers are $18,000 (wholesale).

This pic shows the only spot available in the yard to slap an extra pond in before all the other work gets done. The board is sitting about on the edge of where the 6500 now sits...
bed18.jpg


This is just a view from the other end of the house... irrigation lines need to be run at the same time too (the coil of black pipe)
bed11-1.jpg


This is just a small section of wall with the cap and the feed into the garage steps (temp plantings of veggies LOL)...
bed35.jpg


More of the garage steps, and the start of the "fountain bed"... The fountain bed comes off the house 14' and is about 18' wide. For numbers, this bed alone needs 6 pallets of block, and a bit better than 1.5 pallets of cap... Where the cheesey fence is sitting (just keeps the dog in the yard for now) there's another set of steps (4 steps) and wall that needs to go there to get to driveway height, and to the right, out of the picture, another wall (only a foot high, will run about 30' along another building til we fade it out/stop.
bed34.jpg


This is the fountain... She was in the front yard but a "kind soul" tried to steal her. Thank God when they figured out how heavy she was, they changed their minds and didnt break her! She is now in a safe place in the garage, but she, the two red twig dogwoods, and 2 smoke bushes are going to the "fountain bed"...
fountain.jpg


Materials that really cant be seen is the full footing under the wall (2' wide, 1' deep, compacted gravel), or that everything is backfilled in gravel with a french drain for proper drainage, irrigation, etc...

So once all of the above is done, then can address the pavers, which is 1800-2000 square feet in area. If you look back at the second picture, where the big mound of dirt is, and the little pile of stone dust is, THAT is where the "big pond" is going, with a river going back over to the 6500... Really need to have the pavers in before doing the pond to be certain the grades match exactly, as where the pond meets the patio, will be using bullnosed pavers, so that the pond meets the patio in the same manner as an inground pool.

WOW, was this a long post!
 
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Thanks JW... what I really loved about that client was the "if this was your house and money wasnt an issue, what would you do to dress that area up?" He drew what he thought would work best in that area and they said do it:) Client budgets are all over the place here. This one had an unlimited budget. This next pond going in will be a shoe string budget, but is such a nice lady, we'll take every SAFE short cut to give her something really nice as cheap as possible. His goal with his pond clients is to design what works for them, and has the least amount of things to go wrong if the clients mess with things. He doesnt want them to do more than feed fish or add water... Cant even say it is so we make more off of taking care of them, as we dont make crap there. A 30 minute look in the spring, and an hour at the most in the fall isnt much "profit". He wants them to be able to enjoy them, and not have to worry about anything at all.

I just wish materials werent so damn expensive so we could get ours done. I get so jealous when I hear of those great deal where people get rocks for free. Not happening around here anymore. Although we have a friend (another who does excavation) who has a mountain of basket ball sized rocks in his yard (when I say mountain, I mean 3-4 10-wheel dump truck sized loads worth)... He keeps heckling us for an engine (Ford V6) that he wants, but it is our beater truck and it refuses to fall apart LOL. When the plates expire at the end of the month, I just may say the hell with it, and pull the motor for him... He says I can have all the rocks I want in exchange.. I am thinking most of them LOL. Can buy our son a much nicer truck for the value of those rocks! The friend doesnt care, he digs enough foundations to get more, free... and of course his wife would love to have them out of her front/side yard too LOL.
 

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