Question on water change

[bettasngoldfish]

I am not familiar with mud koi ponds.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Another extreme example of the complete non-necessity of water changes would be poultry/fish aquaculture.

No water changes here-
http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/Y1187E/y1187e15.htm

 

[bettasngoldfish]

Another extreme example of the complete non-necessity of water changes would be poultry/fish aquaculture.

No water changes here-
http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/Y1187E/y1187e15.htm

What about this? (Copied from your link)


6. Oxygen depletion

• When water becomes deep green due to plankton blooms, oxygen in the water may get depleted and fish may die. In such cases, put mats or plastic sheets below the poultry house to catch the chicken excreta and suspend nutrient inputs for 1 to 3 weeks. If possible, immediately irrigate the pond with freshwater.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

Here is some interesting info on mud ponds

https://nextdaykoi.com/koi-fish-facts/koi-mud-ponds/

 

[Meyer Jordan]

What about this? (Copied from your link)


6. Oxygen depletion

• When water becomes deep green due to plankton blooms, oxygen in the water may get depleted and fish may die. In such cases, put mats or plastic sheets below the poultry house to catch the chicken excreta and suspend nutrient inputs for 1 to 3 weeks. If possible, immediately irrigate the pond with freshwater.

All in agreement with what I have stated previously. This is a solvable issue (adding the mats or plastic sheets) and an acute issue. No where is regularly scheduled water changes advocated in this aquaculture practice. Water changes are the exception not the norm.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Here is some interesting info on mud ponds

https://nextdaykoi.com/koi-fish-facts/koi-mud-ponds/

And no mention of water changes.

 

[Lisak1]

We have had folks on this forum set up a storage tote and call it a pond.

I agree on that point - although, to me, a tote isn't a pond - but size definitely does factor in to the equation. Smaller volumes of water are more difficult to maintain.

I can't wrap my head around not changing water as part of routine maintenance.

And I get that - you've had success doing what you do, so you keep doing it. What becomes problematic is people who say you CAN'T keep a pond healthy without regular water changes, even in the face of evidence that proves otherwise.

 

[IPA]

Just as we measure a ponds capacity in inches of fish there should be a similar equation of an agreed upon marginal plant in inches or feet per fish inch for a closed system. Are there any examples of tropical fish stores filtering their tanks by piping water into and out off a bog filter?

 

[budgenator]

About once a week or so. I don't know exactly how much is pumped out. I back wash it using a 2000 gph pump for about 3-4 minutes and it takes about 12 minutes to refill the pond. Do you know how to calculate the amount pumped out?

take a 5 gallon bucket and time how long it takes to fill it twice, that's how long it takes 10 gallons to flow through your hose. Now time how long it takes to refill your pond; now divide the pond fill time by the 10 gallon time and multiply by ten. It's not perfect but it's close enoug fot ponds.

 

[Tula]

Why were you nervous, out of curiosity. You do water changes, you believe they've improved the health or at least the appearance of your fish, but something about it worries you?

Well, my hubby would say WORRY is my middle - ha ha!

I don't like sudden changes for my pond. I never start or stop everything up at the same time, preferring to bring filters and pumps on, gradually. So, changing too much water at one time, would worry me, as it's not gradual.....especially given my pond is small. When I lowered the pond to catch the koi babies, I filled a stock tank to the brim, so I could put it back in the pond.

My koi look wonderful this summer and it's been a great season for my pond. It could be, as @Meyer Jordan suggested, improved filtration, or it could be small water changes, or a combination of both.

I'm really liking the sand & gravel filter, its doing a great job; however the only way I can back wash it, results in small water changes.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Just as we measure a ponds capacity in inches of fish there should be a similar equation of an agreed upon marginal plant in inches or feet per fish inch for a closed system. Are there any examples of tropical fish stores filtering their tanks by piping water into and out off a bog filter?

Just as we measure a ponds capacity in inches of fish there should be a similar equation of an agreed upon marginal plant in inches or feet per fish inch for a closed system. Are there any examples of tropical fish stores filtering their tanks by piping water into and out off a bog filter?

I never recommend determining a pond's capacity in inches per gallon

But your question concerning plants per fish has a complicated answer. Not all aquatic plants are equal in that there are some species that far outpace others in their uptake ability of nutrients, toxins and/or Heavy Metals and pollutants.
Some research has been done on this subject but only on those species that might be used in commercial or industrial wetlands.
The top emergent species are the reeds and rushes followed by the grass-like plants (sedges). There has been no research done on the decorative plant species that I am
aware of.
Although it can be done. it would be a complex process in determining the performance of each specie and number of plants required. Water temperature, solar radiation, water pH, length of growing season, hardiness etc. would need be included in any computation.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

And no mention of water changes.

Well they do mention this:

A mud pond will still need a freshening up periodically. This can involve draining (usually in the winter), liming (to neutralize parasites, raise pH and calcium content, boost microbial growth, carbon dioxide removal), re-tilling the bottom, regrading and perhaps even fertilizing.

If you periodically drain it then you have to refill it. Sounds like a water change to me.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Well they do mention this:

A mud pond will still need a freshening up periodically. This can involve draining (usually in the winter), liming (to neutralize parasites, raise pH and calcium content, boost microbial growth, carbon dioxide removal), re-tilling the bottom, regrading and perhaps even fertilizing.

If you periodically drain it then you have to refill it. Sounds like a water change to me.

First of all, this type of earthen pond maintenance is rarely done more than once a year if even that often. Extensive testing is done beforehand to determine the level of necessity.
Secondly, it is not done directly because of any water quality issues other than adjusting the KH (the liming) but because of those other reasons that they list. This is more like the draining and cleaning done annually on some ponds, (which i also oppose) but is actually done to maintain a healthy Benthos, the foundation of the aquatic food chain
Hardly a comparison in frequency to the weekly or monthly water changes advocated for backyard garden ponds.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I wonder where the concept of water changes came from?

I imagine that water changes were seen as an early form of maintaining water quality.

.

Can you please give us an example of a properly done water change?

A 100% water change is not stressful to fish?

Mitch you are absolutely correct, but the practice is still very common today.
All around the world people manage to keep fish, mostly Goldfish and Bettas, in small bowls for years and years without the use of any kind of pump or filtering system at all. How do they do this......? Yes you guessed it, they totally rely on Water Changes.
How can this be done over and over again without stressing the fish by so many repeated water changes.....? Very easily, you simple insure that basic water source parameters like PH and temperature, match the water already in the bowl. This is much simpler than it sounds. All you have to do fill another container with your source water and let it sit and have it standing by for when you decide to do a water change.
I take it that the anti water change crowd in this forum have never kept Goldfish or Bettas in this way before???

In the case of ponds again, all you have to do is make sure your water going in has a temperature and PH close to the water already in the pond. The faster you do the water change (turn over the water in the pond), the closer those two parameters should be. If they are close enough then there is no reason you could not do a 100% water change in a mater of minutes. This is exactly what happens all the time in nature (think a river flowing past a shoal of fish). In fact, if your water source happened to be from a natural water source like a river or a lake there is no reason you couldn't simply flow the water directly through your pond at the same rate you normally turn over the water in your pond (100% water change every 30 minutes or more 24/7 would be perfectly acceptable).

Of course when our source water comes from a tap we also have to worry about things like chlorine or oxygen levels, thus the need to either treat the water before doing a water change, or do the water change much more slowly (trickle system).
One other caveat regarding well water, I had a friend who had an artisan spring well on his property. The natural water pressure in the well flowed up out of the ground on it's own, no pump necessary. Because of this free flow of water he looked into digging a pond and raising trout and having the well water flow through the pond. He had ample flow, and the temperature and ph were ideal for raising trout, problem was the oxygen levels of the water coming out of the well were virtually nil. Yes he could have set up a system to oxygenate the water using pumps or aerators prior to entering the said trout pond but it defeated the whole point of the (free) flow of water and he decided against.

 

[Lisak1]

I take it that the anti water change crowd in this forum have never kept Goldfish or Bettas in this way before???

I'm not anti-water change... just super lazy. If I don't have to do it, I'm not going to. If other people want to, that's fine with me - just don't tell me that I have to or my pond will become a dead zone.

And your goldfish in a bowl illustration has already been accepted - small volume of water is a different animal. Although, check out my patio pond post - that holds less than 40 gallons and we don't change the water all season. It's the same water from April through November. We top off, but we never remove any on purpose. And no mechanical filtration either - just plants.