Retrofit bottom drain - install without cutting liner in a running pond

Discussion in 'DIY - Do It Yourself' started by Usman, Mar 10, 2017.

  1. Usman

    Usman

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    drains_clip_image002_0005.jpg BD SkimE.jpg fd6107091c9ddb887cdb2911f50020e5.jpg images (2).jpg images.jpg step27.jpg
     
    Usman, Mar 10, 2017
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  2. Usman

    Tula

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    Are you planning a retro fit BD?
     
    Tula, Mar 10, 2017
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  3. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    Usman, I have a suggestion. You may find solid accumulation around the pipe, that goes from the drain to your sidewall, and also those 2x 45 degree elbows are adding unnecessary friction loss (head) to your pump.

    I would remove the 2x 45 degree elbows. Allow the pipe go straight to the sidewall, to where it connects to the pump. This will raise the pipe above the floor more and reduce friction loss. As shown in the first picture, be sure you are using a long sweeping 90 degree elbow wherever 90 degree elbows are applicable.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 10, 2017
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  4. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    Usman, for more information, do research on "Solid Lifting Overflow", which best describes your second picture.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 10, 2017
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  5. Usman

    Usman

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    for future plans , i had this design in mind i thought would share and get some more ideas/discussion , it should work same way as conventional BT as there will be syphin in the pipe it will be gravity fed . there are some ready made versions too i found out later-on
    most of us want bottom drain but installing in linner is difficult and its done while constructing the pond so it can be substitute
     
    Usman, Mar 10, 2017
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  6. Usman

    Tula

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    Will you use a submersible pump, or external?
     
    Tula, Mar 10, 2017
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  7. Usman

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Keep in mind that, because this is a gravity fed device, the pumps flow rate can not exceed the flow rate from the BD.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Mar 10, 2017
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  8. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    Usman, as a quick warning, do not allow the water velocity in your drain pipe to be below 2 feet per second. A 2 ft per second velocity will prevent fish waste and small bits of algae sedimentation inside the pipe. However, this will not stop sedimentation of much heavier debris in the horizontal pipe, like small twigs. Flow rate and pipe size is what determines your water velocity.

    To know your feet per second, this is a good calculator I found. http://www.1728.org/flowrate.htm. Click the "velocity" option below the "do you want to solve for". Then, fill in the appropriate fields.

    This applies whether pipes are gravity or pressure fed.

    This will increase the friction on the flow, but this means purging the drain line much less often.

    If the bottom drain manufacturer indicates a lower flow rate is necessary below 2 feet per second, then I would ignore this recommendation.

    I often read odd, sometimes unnecessary, recommendations on these hobby pond products.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 11, 2017
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  9. Usman

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Do not confuse flow rate with velocity. Flow rate is the amount of water flowing through a pipe in a given period of time. Velocity is the speed of the water.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Mar 11, 2017
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  10. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    Mr. Jordan, velocity can't exist without flow rate. Velocity is a "flow" of water in a given period of time as well.

    Flow rate is inferred, required, by velocity.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 11, 2017
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  11. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    You cannot achieve a velocity in differing pipes without mandating a flow rate in the pipe.

    Two are mutually exclusive.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 11, 2017
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  12. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    If you have flow, then you have velocity.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 11, 2017
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  13. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    If impacts of velocity was better understood and the impact it has on an entire system, then I would not read so many odd recommendations. One pet peeve that has become a bother to me within the hobby pond world.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 11, 2017
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  14. Usman

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    "Volumetric flow rate is the volume of a liquid that passes through a given surface per unit time. It is found from the flow velocity and the surface area of the surface through which the fluid passes."
    Boundless. “Flow Rate and Velocity.” Boundless Physics

    "Flow rate and velocity are related, but quite different, physical quantities. To make the
    distinction clear, think about the flow rate of a river. The greater the velocity of the
    water, the greater the flow rate of the river. But flow rate also depends on the size of
    the river. A rapid mountain stream carries far less water than the Amazon River in Brazil"
    Openstax Rice University

    The same flow rate will have a higher velocity in a 2" pipe than it will have in a 3" pipe.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Mar 11, 2017
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  15. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    I agree and nothing I wrote disputes this and your text reinforces what I wrote. You can not have velocity without flow and vice versa.

    Both are expressed in units of time. One is simply volume and other is size.

    I challenge you to computate the velocity of water without using flow, and vice versa.

    You can't because velocity is also a "flow" of water in a given period of time as well as flow is also a "velocity" of in a given period of time. This does not indicate they are the same physical quantities, nor is it implied.

    I never suggested they are similar physical quantities, but they are mutually exclusive expressions in a given period of time.

    You are shifting the conversation now away from the bottom drain to prove your point.

    The manufacturer defines the "size of the river" with its suction inlet.

    You are creating an argument here that should not exist. I am not here to argue nor to defend myself, which seems to be what you want.

    This does not help Usman.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
    Mitakuye, Mar 11, 2017
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  16. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    The bottom drain manufacturer provides the pipe inlet specifications (I.e., size of river). We do not need to know the exact product to know this, it is a given.

    Drain inlet specifications can not be changed without significantly altering the bottom drain product construction itself.

    Either the flow rate must be increased or a reduced pipe size is connected to the drain.

    Reducing the pipe size by a 1/2 inch or 1 inch to increase the velocity will likely increase friction tremendously more than simply increasing flow rate.

    Increasing flow rate will actually improve drain sweeping performance more than hinder.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
    Mitakuye, Mar 11, 2017
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  17. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    This is my last post until there is further inquiry for information on this subject that would benefit Usman.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 11, 2017
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  18. Usman

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Just clarifying a point of definitions in case @Usman is unaware of the difference. I think anyone would appreciate that. No argument.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Mar 11, 2017
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  19. Usman

    Mitakuye

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    Usman, my apologies. I misunderstood Mr. Jordan's intent.
     
    Mitakuye, Mar 11, 2017
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  20. Usman

    Lisak1

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    Lots of conversations take place here @Mitakuye that take us in all sorts of directions, with no intent to argue - like a conversation between friends. We all ask questions and share ideas. This is a great learning space. But if you expect to post information and not get feedback, this is probably not going to suit you. We are a lively bunch!
     
    Lisak1, Mar 11, 2017
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