ROOTS

[Mmathis]

TurtleMommy here again! I'm kinda jumping around here, but that's my ADD, so.....

As I've been digging around, doing turtle-habitat renovations and getting ready for my pond (I mean literally DIGGING, as in dirt), I've been pondering "roots!"

They are everywhere! Big one, small ones, straight ones, branching & convoluted ones. Funny, but I've never thought too much about roots.

Some roots seem to pass through or move things around, but I found a few that bent along new path/direction when they came to an obstruction.

Sooooo, what happens underground when roots meet pond liner?

I plan to use a flexible liner. My pond will be semi-elevated (the area I will put it is where my current turtle water dish is -- and I built that space up so it would be higher than the surrounding area to eliminate contamination from run-off). That didn't keep the roots out, though.

Is there anything you can put down (other than the cushioning underlayment) that will keep the roots from encroaching on the iiner? Or is that even a problem?

 

[sissy]

Some roots if they are strong enough may deform the liner enough that you get a hole .Thats why the pond at the other house we have to decrease size as the trees are causing problems with the liner and it is 45 mil thick .We will be going down to 20x20 and taking some of the trees out from around the outer edges of the pond and pulling up most of the roots .There is 2 paddings under the liner but after years of neglect and these trees just being to close even the liners did not stop them .There is carpet padding and it looks like it could be something else but we will not know until we get under and look

 

[HARO]

I've often wondered about the same thing, but even though my current pond is only about 10' from a tall cedar hedge and maybe 12' trom a 35' blue spruce, I've had no problems with either. The pond has been in place for about 15 years (when both the hedge and spruce were much smaller), and there are actually spruce roots above the ground for the unwary to trip over, but so far no problems. BTW, the only problem I've had in the past was with a PVC liner; mice or voles chewed holes in it at the water level. That has never happened with EPDM. John

 

[mogsie]

yeah i thaught about that also, thats why when i planted the japanese acers i planted them in large hollowed out tree stumps above ground level, so it will be a long time before their roots get down into the soil (i hope), ime sure i read somewhere (must look this up) that the roots of some plants/trees can actually sense the water on the other side of the liner and will try their best to push through it to get to the water.

 

[sissy]

well I had to replace the liner on my pond this past summer after new neighbors dog destroyed the liner by I think chewing it or digging at it with his claws and teeth .Not fun to take the whole think apart .

 

[taherrmann4]

I don't see roots being a problem when it comes to your liner. If anything they may grow under it and push the liner up where the roots are nothing more. I have not done any studies or experiments but that is my gut. I have a big dawn redwood growing about 8' away, a japanese maple growing about 1' away, and a fast growing river birch tree about 2' away and no problems so far. Only time will tell but I am not concerned.

Now the other day had me concerned. We are watching my parents dog as they vacation in Florida and he was getting a drink from the pond and fell in and could not get out. The water was about 48 degrees and my wife had to help him out as he could not get any traction on the liner to get out. I went out and took a look at the liner to see if his claws had punctured it and it does not appear to be the case, but it was dark by the time I got home from work. :grumble:

 

[addy1]

They probably just slipped on the liner and did not actually puncture it. If it had been able to get a nail through it prob could have climbed out.

 

[sissy]

Well lets hope the liners fine because it would be hard to replace it this time of year .The roots at the other house pushed the liner out so far that the ground is caving in on that side and the space between the liner and the dirt has increased .Thats why decreasing the pond size is the only way to go .Was hoping to get it done before winter but there is still alot of clearing out to do around the pond

 

[Waterbug]

If you read other places on the internet you may find lots of people believing roots will go thru liner to get to the water. So I think it's a common belief though not posted here. But of course the roots have no way of knowing there's water on the other side.

Normal installation instructions say to cut back cut roots. Lot's of people seem to think the reason for that is the roots will grow and hurt the liner. But the reason is the cut root becomes a stick, once water is added the liner pushes against the soil, the cut root doesn't move and maybe pushes thru.

I experienced what Sissy said about dogs. Once installing a pond I had the liner down, went to lunch and when I got back the owner's dogs had ripped a hole in the liner. After that I always installed a construction fence around the project when there were dogs.

When removing old ponds I've seen roots growing along the liner, like what you see in a potted plant. Never looked like a threat to me.

I once planted Giant Reed inside a small EPDM "pond". Giant Reed is a fast grower, faster than bamboo, huge roots. When dug it up the distortion of the liner was impressive but didn't seem to be even close to failing. And that's contained roots, no choice but to push out.

What Sissy said about roots pushing a pond's side in can be an issue in some cases, but that's an issue no matter if liner or even concrete.

 

[sissy]

Thats true waterbug but have to say in my case they are 2 willow trees and and several birch trees and they have really been neglected and may have been volunteer trees .I really don't know since they were there when I bought the place and since the house was not lived in for around 2 or 3 years ,some neighbors say longer and it was rented out for 6 months at one time .Willow trees I know seek out water .Also there is a bIack walnut tree about 5 feet from the other side of the pond that was taken down as it made a real mess too . guess you have to really think about what you are planting no matter what it is .The developer building house's here keeps planting river birches close to the houses here and he calls himself a landscaper and owns a lanscaping company ,not very good landscaper in my opinion .one house he built down the road he planted a willow not even 10 ft. from the front door ,yes it looked cute when it was small but 3 years later and you can;t see the front door .You have to get through the jungle first .

 

[Waterbug]

Yeah, large trees next to a small pond wouldn't be my first choice either aesthetically.

 

[j.w]

Only trees going to be allowed near my pond are my small Japanese Maple and a few smaller growing (5 - 6 ft) evergreen decorative trees. Not taking any chances w/ the big boys! Roots may not go through your liner but they can sure push things around while they grow and slither about not to mention the mess from the leaves.

 

[sissy]

Jw you ever have any problems with pine needles going in your pond and changing ph .We had that problem with the black walnut trees and also when there is a windy day do not look up when walnuts are falling .My observation been there done that

 

[j.w]

I haven't ever noticed any pine needles in there. We have fir trees around but no pines close enough to blow in there anyways. No walnut trees either. Heard that you can't grow stuff under those trees as they can kill plants.

 

[Catfishnut]

When we install the drainage field for a septic system for our cabins, we lay the drain pipe in a gravel bed and add water softener salt to it and around it. This deters the tree roots from growing into the drainage field and the pipe.

I don't see why the same practice couldn't be applied here. Lay salt and gravel around the excavation cavity for the pond. The liner wouldn't be affected by the salt in any way that I know and the only problem that would ever arise is if the liner became punctured and the salt started to leech into the pond. If that happened, you'd probably be repairing the liner anyway, so it wouldn't be a permanent breach. The small amount of salt that would make its way into the pond would be very minimal as the water would be going out of the pond through the breach hole, usually, rather than into it.

Gordy