Using a vortex filter instead of settlement tank

[GaryMoz]

A year has gone by but no real movement on building the pond , but i do now need to get quotes for the hard landscaping to be done around the pond so I need to finalise some details.

So I looking at building a pond that has bog filter but also has a bottom drain, see diagram below

In this design I was going to use settlement tank to remove some of the crap before entering the bog filter. the real flow rate into settlement tank will be around 12000l/h 3000 usgals/h so 1000 litre is barely big enough. Due to the layout is will be difficult to get a bigger settlement tank in. So I'm thinking of using a old vortex filter, I know they are not in vouge, but i think they could be idea for this job, There are lots of cheap used ones for sale.

I can't find much info on them now, many of the filters for sale have no info other than dimension, so will a vortex do the job and if so what size (physical dimensions) vortex would be needed (flow 12000l/h 3000 usgals/h)?

Thanks

 

[Lisak1]

Overkill in my opinion. Your skimmer is essentially going to do what you need it to do to keep debris from reaching the bog. And why a bottom drain? Are you planning for lots of big koi?

All this thinking might be what’s slowing you down!

 

[WaterGardener]

I wouldn't have a pond without a bottom drain. Keeps the bottom of the pond clean of debris with no help from me. Anything that saves work on my part is ideal, in my opinion. I already have more than I can keep up with.

And I do don't have koi. Just goldfish and a few orfes.

 

[Mmathis]

I have always thought that the water from the bog should come directly from the pond, rather than go through other filters first — but that’s just me.

 

[GaryMoz]

Overkill in my opinion. Your skimmer is essentially going to do what you need it to do to keep debris from reaching the bog. And why a bottom drain? Are you planning for lots of big koi?

All this thinking might be what’s slowing you down!

hit the nail on the head, over thinking is such a big problem form me

The pond will be quite contemporary, with a fitted box liner, with no gravel or rocks in the main area of pond, I also intend to a few large koi. So hoping a bottom drain will help keeping the pond clean

 

[GaryMoz]

I have always thought that the water from the bog should come directly from the pond, rather than go through other filters first — but that’s just me.

I was told last year (on this forum) that the bottom drain would put to much "crap" in to the bog, so to use a settlement tank or some form of pre-filter before the bog.

 

[Lisak1]

Ah - so you're building a dedicated koi pond. Different animal.

The stuff that comes from the bottom drain could clog your bog plumbing, depending on lots of factors. Ideally the water should be "clean" (ie., mechanically filtered) but still "dirty" (ie., not biologically filtered).

 

[GaryMoz]

Ah - so you're building a dedicated koi pond. Different animal.

The stuff that comes from the bottom drain could clog your bog plumbing, depending on lots of factors. Ideally the water should be "clean" (ie., mechanically filtered) but still "dirty" (ie., not biologically filtered).

Not necessary dedicated, it will be mixed fish.

So as in the original post, the water will need to be pre filtered before the bog, so instead of using a settlement tank, could I use a vortex filter that should take up less space. There seems to be very little information on them nowadays, I will need one that can handle 12000l/h.

The other option is a sieve to prefilter the water, but they seem to need more maintenance and a more expensive

 

[GBBUDD]

hit the nail on the head, over thinking is such a big problem form me

The pond will be quite contemporary, with a fitted box liner, with no gravel or rocks in the main area of pond, I also intend to a few large koi. So hoping a bottom drain will help keeping the pond clean

A bottom drain needs help the bottom of the pond needs to have the drain at the lowest point and the more exaggerated the slope is to the drain the better. The fish will poop and as the swim by will constantly stir it up until it reaches the suction

 

[GBBUDD]

sieve to prefilter the water,

If I was going to build a European raised pond I would have a skimmer or two that were nothing more than a low edge where the water drops out of the pond by a very shallow yet wide opening. This would then imeduately drop over a sieve simply by gravity. And the intake of the pump would be at the bottom of the very wide sieve. Then have the pump push it to the bog AND A SHOWER. Those three should very effectively get the job done without complicated machinery or extra energy.

The shower for injecting all the o2 a pond could ever need to increase bacterial growth.
The sieve to catch debris for removal and the bog for bacterial and microbial environment for nature to do her part

 

[GaryMoz]

If I was going to build a European raised pond I would have a skimmer or two that were nothing more than a low edge where the water drops out of the pond by a very shallow yet wide opening. This would then imeduately drop over a sieve simply by gravity. And the intake of the pump would be at the bottom of the very wide sieve. Then have the pump push it to the bog AND A SHOWER. Those three should very effectively get the job done without complicated machinery or extra energy.

The shower for injecting all the o2 a pond could ever need to increase bacterial growth.
The sieve to catch debris for removal and the bog for bacterial and microbial environment for nature to do her part

Thanks for you reply, it's appreciated.

The pond will be sunken, the top level with deck.

Because the main pond will have no rocks or gravel, I wanted bottom drain to help keep it clean. As you suggested I do have a slope to bottom drain.

I like the idea of the skimmer with a low edge, it could be done, I was going to use no niche skimmer ( which sits in a niche , but inside the liner). For the main pond I was going to get box welded liner made, they can do the shape in the diagram above, i'm not sure if they can add the section behind the low edge skimmer, I will have to ask them.

The total flow from bottom drain and skimmer will be around 7500 gph, as both need to be pre filtered before the bog, it may be worth putting both into a sieve, I don't think I will have room for that flow for settlement tanks or even vortex filters. They are going under deck near the bog .

I've seen a nearly new sieve for sale with with twin 4" inlets for up to 12000gph at reason price so that may be the way to go, it will take the input from both the low edge skimmer and the bottom drain.

(i apologise for rambling, I thinking of solutions as I'm typing)

So is this a sensible approach?

 

[GBBUDD]

i would turn the skimmer to a sieve make the area wider so the debris that's caught gets pushed to where the sieve is like a ski jump water falls through debris gets pushed as it builds to the end where the water has already dropped through.
sieves need to have the water come in at the top. and pump comes in the bottom or over the top and down to the bottom. i don't see a skimmer working any better than a sieve . but in the same breath i have never used one but i love the idea that i could run a 300 micron then if things startted looking a tad rough i could slide like a 60 micron right on top of the other when it clogs or the water gets polished then go back to the course sieve.
even if the main drain is only gravity fed if it is at the bottom of the pond and comes up tot he same height as the skimmer intake/ sieve intake if they are both emptying on the sieve a simple ball valve will control the main drains

i'd go with matrix block bog as that will be your settling area. but you'll need snorkel and centipede

i would take your large sieve and put it against the pond making the double wide sieve pump from the bottom to the bottom of the bog

 

[GaryMoz]

#GBBUDD thank you for your input.

I've just noticed your signature Aquascape's DIY pond of the year ' i hope you don't mind me using "lower cost alternatives" (builders soakaway creates, 6" twinwall drainage pipe with slots cut in for centipede , and inspection chamber for the snorkel) all for £200

Before going much further i do need the pond to be low maintenance, there will be times when we be travelling and be away for a month, so I'm a little worried about how often a sieve will nee to be cleaned, also with the latest version of design, with just the single skimmer/sieve and therefore a single pump and a single inlet to the bog, i have a single point of failure where as if I keep the skimmer intake and bottom drain flows sperate it gives a little redundancy. would you consider this a major factor?

I'm trying to visualise what you are suggested, do have a link or an image for you mean :

sieve make the area wider so the debris that's caught gets pushed to where the sieve is like a ski jump water falls through debris gets pushed as it builds to the end where the water has already dropped through.
sieves need to have the water come in at the top. and pump comes in the bottom or over the top and down to the bottom.

and here, I don't understand what you getting at with use the simple ball valve.

even if the main drain is only gravity fed if it is at the bottom of the pond and comes up tot he same height as the skimmer intake/ sieve intake if they are both emptying on the sieve a simple ball valve will control the main drains

Are you referring to be able to turn off the flow from the bottom drain into the sieve?

Would the flow from the bottom drain back into sieve intake reduce the flow of water, and allow the bottom drain to be easier blocked? I may well be picturing wrong.

 

[GBBUDD]

There are two links below this post one the diy of the year the second is to my showcase / the showcase has lessons learned and photos of building my pond. I too built my pond as I was away for months on end the pond had to fend for its self . And I did getbit once when my1plants had grown so much they backed up my stream and it overflowed thus emptying my cistern and I did loose a couple fish I was lucky that I was home a week latter.

#GBBUDD thank you for your input.

I've just noticed your signature Aquascape's DIY pond of the year ' i hope you don't mind me using "lower cost alternatives" (builders soakaway creates, 6" twinwall drainage pipe with slots cut in for centipede , and inspection chamber for the snorkel) all for £200 Not at all... I am not aquascapes.. I do see benefit to many of their products and excpecialy appreciate all the videos. That's manly how I learned.

Before going much further i do need the pond to be low maintenance, there will be times when we be travelling and be away for a month, so I'm a little worried about how often a sieve will nee to be cleaned, also with the latest version of design, with just the single skimmer/sieve and therefore a single pump and a single inlet to the bog, i have a single point of failure where as if I keep the skimmer intake and bottom drain flows sperate it gives a little redundancy. would you consider this a major factor?........What I am thinking is a dyi sieve one that is like the width of three standard sieves. . That way you have a very shallow skimmer at the ponds surface . Look at it like there's three sieves on that is for the main drain . That has a ball valve on it so you can controll how much water comes out of the pipe if that pipe is lower than the surface water that's skimming off the pond it should work very well and will need to be regulated so that you have surface skimming as well as pull /gravity overflow from the 4 inch drain pipe off the bottom. You may need to put like a t on the end of that 4 inch pipe so water is disbursed a little better and not just coming out in one small area like they have out of the old bio falls the pipe emptied into like a horse troff and overflows the sides. ...... if I had to go away and this is a dyi I'd think about making the micron screen removable so I could place matala Matt's in its place when I was away .

That

I'm trying to visualise what you are suggested, do have a link or an image for you mean : nope all in my mind when I built my pond I had only aquarium knowledge now 6 years ltter this is what I'd do if I was to do it again. I'd like to have sieves or something other than a very course strainer basket to remove sediment from the water sieves work as well as Rdf filters but a lot of moving parts. If the sieve is way over sized leaving plenty of room for what's caught to be pushed out of the waters flow then I'd think it could run for sometime before it needs intervention. But now that I'm thinking about it making it so there's sides along the micron filter it's self so if it did clog the water rises and over flows the side problem solved. The Sieve gets bypassed when it gets dirty and no one there to clean it. It's not working either but it's not going to hurt anything for a couple weeks or more. Damn I want to build this who has the money and layout¡!!!!!!!!!! The pump intake is at the bottom of the sieve and pushes the water to the bottom of the bog/ wetland filter falls as a waterfall to a stream or into your pond and around and around we go.....




and here, I don't understand what you getting at with use the simple ball valve.


Are you referring to be able to turn off the flow from the bottom drain into the sieve?as I said above 1. yes to have the ability to shut it down . 2 . To be able to control how much comes out of the pipe . I have had fish get stuck to the main drain and I have two drains on the same line. So if something blocked on drain the other would take up the draw and not hold anything to the drain I guess small butterflies aren't strong enough to pull awayb

Would the flow from the bottom drain back into sieve intake reduce the flow of water, and allow the bottom drain to be easier blocked? I may well be picturing wrong.

I

 

[GaryMoz]

Ok I'm starting to see what you are saying, is the diagram below near it.

My biggest worry is the fine control of the level of the water in the pond.. I need to work out if there a easy to connect rainwater harvesting to the pond and maintain the level.

It needs a way it can easily be cleaned, but as suggested i could make the who sieve into large basket which I could just take out. I could even look at making a little settle type tank/area at the bottom the ski slope and prehaps rig up some form of flush mechanism. The bottom drain that feeds into the top could have a divert that forces the water across the bottom of the sieve.

I quite like the design, it's quite experimental, as we know building a pond costs a lot of money what happens if this does not work.
In my original design, I was going to build a space for a settlement tank, the problem was it would hard to get a big enough space, the most I think I could do is around 260 to 300 gals, not really big enough, but I could perhaps replace it with a couple of vortex filters.

In this design what would be my fall back? what could I try if it did not work expected, I 'm really just thinking about how to clean at the heavy crud, I happy the bog should do it's job if done right. Sorry I'm just typing my thought out as I think about them, trying to work out pros and cons.

Please let me know if I've got the basic concepts wrong.