Val and I are in total shock.

[Becky]

@brokensword you goaded @callingcolleen1 into an argument here and then accuse her of 'personal attacks' when she called you out on being rude. This type of behaviour will not be tolerated on the forum. Please read the Forum Etiquette (link in my signature).

I appreciate that certain topics can be divisive, but I would urge you all to remember that what works for you doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Every pond is different, and the health of a pond relies on a number of different factors. Even if you feel that you are right doesn't necessarily mean that other people are wrong, so please always be respectful of other people's opinions and experience.

 

[MitchM]

Yes. Beer is distilled so it is pure ...

I don't mean to be a stickler, but .... beer is only fermented, not distilled.
That's where I draw the line, beer and pond breathers...

..and to keep my post relevant to the topic at hand, Dave, have you tried Triton Labs to analyze a water sample?
They're located in your part of the world and they use a mass spectrometer to analyze water samples from aquarists. I'm not sure if they process freshwater samples though.
Maybe if you could find out if there are any unusual heavy metals present, you could determine if there are any possibilities of a foreign substance being introduced to your ponds.
https://www.triton-lab.de/en/

Regardless, I'm sure you'll get to the bottom if it.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

@audioenvy no we didnt take a shot of the gills we didn't need too Brian was Spike's opposite number for many years.
So we have a health officer of his calibre here in Plymouth who is now our very own health officer.
Many thanx again for the heads up on the gill photo's but I can tell you that they didn't look at all like the photo's your showing me .
A the moment we are looking into temperature as being the culprit ,it is possible.that we supper chilled the pond somehow
One thing we have noticed though is the windchill factor coming up the valley , we had -6c a few nights ago

Dave 54

First of all Dave let me offer you my sincere condolences, I know your koi are very dear to you and Val and I'm sure you are both devastated.
But in reading your post above I question why you didn't take and post any pictures of your fish??? In an earlier post you are asking for help from the members in finding the cause, certainly giving them as much information as possible to help you would be the best course of action, and it seems to supply pictures of the injured koi would be a logical course. Not to mention it might also be useful to someone else down the road who's fish might also be suffering especially if you ever find the cause of what happened to your koi.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Dave's first post says quote "we checked over two dead koi the latest to die and the first we saw yesterday , they look alive but each when you look at the gills they both show dead gill tissue in patches with red in between that looks normal too us "Unquote

I would say they suffered from breathing in too many toxic gases and not enough clean oxygen. I have seen this before in other ponds in the city, when all they used was a pond heater and a bubblier. Air lines freeze off as it is common and then fish suffocate from lack of fresh oxygen.

Page 2 top post by Dave54 quote "Turned the air down to the bubbler (even further than its normal winter setting) did another water change with filters and pond totally isolated apart from air flow that means the 4" bottom drain slide valve and also blocking 2" return pipe 2 ft down in the pond" unquote

In my opinion Dave may have turned down the bubblier too much and that may have lead to oxygen loss in the pond water, and thus causing his big fish to suffer damage on their lungs as he already stated from the first post.
People fear ice cold water way too much and he turned down the bubblier to avoid what he though would be super chilled water, and the hence the fish died of lack of oxygen...

 

[Lisak1]

Well said @Becky . I think each pond owner should hope to become the expert of THEIR OWN pond. Assuming that what works for you will work for another pond can be a dangerous path. And I said this on another thread - it's erroneous to assume that correlation equals causation. Because I do A+B+C with my pond and have good results, it's tempting to assume the formula is alway A+B+C. But in reality, the formula may be A+C with B neither adding to or subtracting from my results. And every one of us also has D, E and F to consider which are those things which are unique to OUR pond as a result of construction variations or climate or about a million other possibilities.

Clearly Dave has been a successful koi keeper for a long time - something changed. Figuring out what that might be is his goal, I'm sure.

@callingcolleen1 I agree with you that koi can handle temperatures that are well below what Dave reported. You've proven that for many years and mine have also thrived in the cold of the midwest for 6 winters now - two of which were the coldest in recent history in our area. I'm shocked every spring to see how my koi have grown over winter when all they do is hover near the bottom of the pond for weeks on end. However, it's possible that because Dave's koi have never experienced those temps that it was too much for THOSE koi. It's like when we visited my relatives in California and it dropped below 60 degrees. They were all in jackets and hats and long pants and sweat shirts and we were in shorts and flip flops and ready to head for the beach. We are used to much colder temperatures. They acted like frost bite was imminent. It's all relative.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Well said @Becky . I think each pond owner should hope to become the expert of THEIR OWN pond. Assuming that what works for you will work for another pond can be a dangerous path. And I said this on another thread - it's erroneous to assume that correlation equals causation. Because I do A+B+C with my pond and have good results, it's tempting to assume the formula is alway A+B+C. But in reality, the formula may be A+C with B neither adding to or subtracting from my results. And every one of us also has D, E and F to consider which are those things which are unique to OUR pond as a result of construction variations or climate or about a million other possibilities.

Clearly Dave has been a successful koi keeper for a long time - something changed. Figuring out what that might be is his goal, I'm sure.

@callingcolleen1 I agree with you that koi can handle temperatures that are well below what Dave reported. You've proven that for many years and mine have also thrived in the cold of the midwest for 6 winters now - two of which were the coldest in recent history in our area. I'm shocked every spring to see how my koi have grown over winter when all they do is hover near the bottom of the pond for weeks on end. However, it's possible that because Dave's koi have never experienced those temps that it was too much for THOSE koi. It's like when we visited my relatives in California and it dropped below 60 degrees. They were all in jackets and hats and long pants and sweat shirts and we were in shorts and flip flops and ready to head for the beach. We are used to much colder temperatures. They acted like frost bite was imminent. It's all relative.

I bought many koi in past from pet stores that had never wintered outside before in their life and they all survivied. Actually all my koi were from pet store and they had all never wintered before, even my two oldest koi were from pet store 27 years back and they came from down south and had never seen winter ever...nobody died!
I think Dave got a severe winter blast that England had never before seen in many decades. Dave was always worried about water getting super chilled. Dave did mention on another post that he covered his pond with sheets of poly and with that Monster storm England got with tons of snow, and he did say he rurned down the air bubblier, most likely because he feared super chilled water. The air bubblier being turned down may have been too low and he did say on his first post that the gills of his fish suffered damage. That would indicate his fish suffocated.
Not sure what you mean by A+B+C ? All I can tell you for sure is that next to nobody on this fourm winters their ponds quite like me. They mostly use heater + air pump and or breather. I think I am about the only person to run my pumps year round for 27 years with no koi loss ever while lots of reported deaths from air bubblier freezing up or pond breather problems. Those are just the facts. Maybe more people should run their ponds year round as well...

 

[Lisak1]

I agree with you about keeping the water moving all winter - we do the same. I think it helps maintain our water quality both throughout the winter and first thing in the spring. We run our pump all winter and have for five years. I know it's not 27 years, but still a measure of success. But I know a lot of ponds aren't constructed in a way that allow for that - the waterfall would dam up and the pond would lose water. And lots of people close their ponds down for winter and their fish also do just fine, so keeping your water running isn't the ONLY way to successfully overwinter koi outdoors. For those who can't do what you and I do, it's important to know and share about other methods that work.

I also wonder if large koi could be affected by the cold more than small koi. They have a much larger body mass to maintain. Whether the shock of being exposed to extreme cold for the first time could actually kill them I don't know - it was just a theory. Just trying to figure out what changed with Dave's situation that caused the big loss.

My A+B+C illustration was just a way of saying that we all assume that our success (or failure as in the case of another member who lost fish) was based on a series of methods we employ. Without true experimentation it's anecdotal evidence. So in your case you A. keep the water running, B. use a trough heater and C. cover your ponds. You make the assumption that those are the things that make you successful. Without removing one or more of those factors and seeing the results you can't say for sure if it's A, B or C or a combination of two that are actually involved in keeping your fish from dying over winter. And maybe it's none of those - maybe it's something else completely, like water volume. And it's hard to even compare from year to year because of the factors that change that you can't control - temperatures vary, more or less snow, fish get larger, etc. And maybe it's NONE of those. Maybe the fish just got sick and were weak and winter was more than they could handle. I just walked around our natural ponds yesterday and saw two or three dead fish on the shore - what killed those fish, but not any of the others?

 

[callingcolleen1]

I think the real problem is the way they think in the UK. If you look at some of the pond videos on U Tube from the UK, they are all deathly afraid of winter. The grass is still green and flowers everywhere and they are turning on their pond heaters for fear of a night close to freezing. People are most afraid of what they experience the least. Here in Canada where I have wintered my ponds with wind chills down to below minus 50 and ambient temperature's close to below -48 one cold night, and all was well. But to those who never experience such cold then they can be overcome by fear of what they never experienced. That storm that hit the UK as a monster storm for them, and something many have not seen for maybe a century or more.
I do not think that the fish were weak or sick as @Dave54 knows much about keeping his koi healthy but very little about actually wintering Koi in cold temperature's. The temp was only -6 Celsius and maybe more with the wind chill but that is still not cold to us but to those in the UK that is very scary for them, but not at all cold for the koi. If I had only those temperature's I would never fear and never need a pond heater, but to those in the UK who turn on the pond heater while the grass is still green and the flowers still blooming is just crazy to us here in Canada.
I also have Koi from Israel and I am sure they never went though any winter and they are fine too. The local pet store sometimes gets Koi from Israel as they are cheaper to bring to Canada than from the US sometimes...

The purpose of this forum is to share the knowledge and learn about what works and what does not work. We should not be afraid to speak up and share our knowledge. I feel very bad for @Dave54 and I know he is very knowledgeable about so many things I know nothing of, like Koi disease or sickness. My koi are never sick as they are always in very cold water, even during the summer my ponds run very cool as the spinning balls and deep upper ponds and shade from trees keeps water quite cold. In the UK and down south the experts are all very good at dealing with such problems as they have very hot weather for long periods of time and hence the sick koi. I myself am only good at wintering the ponds as that I what I do best as the weather here is very cold for long periods in the winter. I still have two and three feet of snow out front piled high around the walkways. Its still cold but some is starting to melt. Some long hard winters here in Medicine Hat we still have snow on the ground close to May!

 

[callingcolleen1]

Keeping the water running with underwater filters and pumps is actually the best way to winter a pond as the pumps and filters are all below the ice, and a tube with running water can be diverted to the other end of pond or upper stream to flow ones pond. I have never had a frozen tube of running water as the pumps all have good filters under the water that prevent the water from slowing down and freezing. One could use the same system I use, EX Bio filters connected to pump, and you can connect several EZ Bio filters so they can run all winter without plugging up. Water flowing through tube will not freeze over as long as the power is on the water is still flowing. Never ever failed me unlike the devices that people use today. Even here in Medicine Hat people use those air pumps that seem to always freeze over when the weather is very extreme. My pumps and filters are all below the ice so they do not freeze over. it is the very best proven method and when you calculate the time and money we spend on our ponds, it is a small investment for winter to purchase a EZ Bio filter and suitable pump to keep the water flowing if you shut down the main big pumps.
The trouble is most koi sites recommend the air pump which is notorious for freezing shut and cutting off the air supply to the pond. Every winter somebody I know kills off their fish using the air pump with heater. Heater alone is not enough as the heater gets iced over and blocks the flow of air. You need air supply and air pumps are not a proven method in extreme cold.

I do not cover all the ponds and I never used to cover the ponds either. And then the cover is only a sheet of plastic and not some indoor heated tank or anything. The water inside is still ice cold and barely at 1 degree Celsius and I get ice crystals like crazy handing off the top. But it does help keep the cost of heating a pond with a 1500 watt heater down. Remember that one heater now heats four large connecting ponds in the worst of winters. I still get ice. I have one foot or more of thick ice on the bottom pond { but water still flowing and I have a opening where the water flows } so not sure covering that pond was worth it and instead I will cover the upper pond with that shell next year.

 

[callingcolleen1]

My method can be used by everyone. its not complicated either. It will work for all and its cheaper than losing expensive old koi that are hard to replace. it also is a proven method that has worked very well for me since 1991. And you have seen me all use it with my winter videos...

Save money and unplug that heater when its above minus 10 Celsius. It was minus 13 Celsius earlier and I never plugged pond in last night and the sun comes up early these days and a little ice is nothing to fear when water is running under the ice.

I have managed to convince two people where I work that have ponds like everybody. They now use my method during the winter and have reported no trouble this year either.

 

[Lisak1]

I don't know what you mean by "air pumps" - aerators maybe? And I know the covers are new to your pond - I used that as an example of one thing some people swear by. I'm familiar with how your pond works and I've learned a lot from what you've shared. But I don't do it exactly like you do - and my way works, too.

So there's no argument that your way works. I'm just saying it's not the ONLY way. If it were, then all the people where I live that shut down their ponds and rely on de-icers or aerators or pond breathers would be reporting dead fish. And they aren't. There are way more of them than there are of people like you and me who keep things running. We definitely get our share of below zero weather here in Northern Illinois. And lots of snow and ice and wind, too. And some people simply aren't interested in keeping their pond running - they don't want to risk something going wrong and having a mid-winter disaster, which is fine. There are other ways - that's all. Being dogmatic about my method would be denying that other ways work, which would fly in the face of evidence that proves otherwise.

 

[Gemma]

Maybe more people should run their ponds year round as well...

I try to!
I never adjust my aerator, and always leave the falls running until the pump starts to struggle, but even the winters that I turn it off, it is only off for a very short period of time...my fish have done fine with leaving things running.

 

[MitchM]

I think there's too much attention being paid to cold temperatures.

Dave and Val's ponds are:
1) in a protected area from the wind
2) in a high humidity environment, which would greatly reduce heat loss from evaporation
3) are a large size, again reducing the chances of a sudden change in temperature.

By focusing on only one thing, we wind up missing what was the actual cause so we can identify and prevent similar losses in the future.

Ignore what regular people say on YouTube.

.

 

[callingcolleen1]

[QUOTE="Lisak1, post: 370687, - aerators.

So there's no argument that your way works. I'm just saying it's not the ONLY way. If it were, then all the people where I live that shut down their ponds and rely on de-icers or aerators or pond breathers would be reporting dead fish. [/QUOTE]

I never said it was the only way but for some that have already lost fish, or where there may be threat of severe winter, it is a easy alternative and many people may already have a spare pump and filter on hand that could be used to keep water moving in their pond. You could shut down big waterfalls and other pumps as you normally do and run a spare pump with filter and that would for sure help. It is sad that so many people lost their koi this year using those methods, like even from around town here a lady I know lost her big old koi as well. There are lots of reports on the internet as well. It is just a simple option and we should not discard it so quickly to say it won't work for people who already have lost koi.

 

[Dave 54]

First of all Dave let me offer you my sincere condolences, I know your koi are very dear to you and Val and I'm sure you are both devastated.
But in reading your post above I question why you didn't take and post any pictures of your fish??? In an earlier post you are asking for help from the members in finding the cause, certainly giving them as much information as possible to help you would be the best course of action, and it seems to supply pictures of the injured koi would be a logical course. Not to mention it might also be useful to someone else down the road who's fish might also be suffering especially if you ever find the cause of what happened to your koi.

@Mucky_Waters
Thanx for your condolences on the loss of 10 of our koi devastated wasn't the word when I found the first one (our oldest and dearest koi , then lifted the remaining covers to find the rest .
Fair comment on why I didn't post photo's (Shock does funny things to a person, it simply didn't enter my mind its not a question of me asking people to post photo's , then breaking my own rules no !!!...far from it my friend ) @brokensword please read the posts properly :- "Plus the fact I had called in the Former BKKS's Health Standards Committee Chairman the equivalent to your AKCA's former koi Health Forum Chairman Spike Cover, both of who were highly trained koi health officials, both being trained up by our respective Societies before both left their posts of the said Societies with ours still acting as our clubs health officer both of who I talk to Brian in person, with Spike by email .
Add to that our 30 + years of koi knowledge and if we couldn't find an answer between us then nobody could.
After many hours of reading about gill damage we came to the conclusion that in 2017 I made three changes to the pond (1) my experiment with shredded plastic milk bottles as filter medium (following a South African's experiment with it .
(2) we built a frame for our net to sit in out of 2" pipe and netting cable tied around it (following a GPF members idea)(3) lastly I changed the thickness of the policarbonate sheeting.
As normal I turned down the air to the Spin drifter bottom drain, and as normal did my usual winter water changes using the trickle method to allow the pond to take up the ambient water temperature of the as it enters the pond again through a virtually new De-chlorination filter.
My water tests apart from the Ph kit were fine ( a question of the wrong lid on wrong bottle contaminating the kit).
But all water perameter's were also tested with a far superior kit than the API kit we have and it bore out our findings.
@callingcolleen1 The sheets atop the frame for the netting and not under it thus allowing for the -7c + windchill to get under the sheeting to super chill the pond this was would then be taken down the bottom drain through our filters and come back chilling the water even further (not forgetting the reduced air flow which would be adding its own chill to the water in the form of chilled air.
Plus unlike you we do not heat our pond with a cattle heater throughout the winter months
Another thing I felt I also did wrong was to rely on the Pool/Pond remote thermometer readings , which were quite happily reporting back that the pond temperature was a full 4c lower than the reading of 5c ( temperature tests with our Hand held Infradred Thermometer a K<moon GM300 -50c ~ 420c (-58f ~ 788f ).
We've had this discussion before and I have posted my Canadian Friend Elaine's pond photo's in the depths of a Canadian winter at Fort St John British Columbia with a depth of 2ft of ice over her covered pond with air stalagetite's standing a good few feet in height.
You may mock us Brits for being wimps in the winter months but the last time I ever saw serious snowfall like we had this time and temperatures like we had was in the winter of 63 - 64 when I was a kid and had a snow drift right up to my bedroom window
It is the first time we've had snow here in Plymouth since the early 80's and its the first time its settled in our area Dartmoor usually protecting us against snow , it being at a much higher elevation than Plymouth .
@MitchM There are a set of circumstances especially during Easterly winds that any wind will blow straight up the passageway by our front door and curls around the corner to hit the pond full on that means wind chill which is what the UK had been going through for days prior to the deaths.


Dave 54