Water Changes

[MitchM]

Saw this given as advice on Facebook. Any comments?

"Smaller but often water changes are best (25%), every 2 or 3 days pulling water from the bottom of the pond. This is where the "Heavy" Water is, heavy in bad bacterial."

Stop wasting water, stop stressing out your fish and learn about bacteria.

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[MitchM]

I would also ask them what is happening in this picture.
If they can't explain it and how it relates to water changes, they should not be doing any water changes.

 

[barryian]

@barryian We live on a standard 1/4 acre suburban lot. For years we had nothing but a backyard with grass to mow - too much of it for my taste! Once our kids were grown and out of the house we had time for more gardening, which is my real enjoyment. Now our backyard is half patio / half pond. I believe any pond can be designed with a bog in mind and we've even seen a few retro-fitted bogs. One pond that we toured the guy had built a bog that looked like a stream bed leading to his pond. You would have never known it was a bog if he hadn't pointed it out.

There are definitely many ways of doing things and most will work. Bogs as manmade pond filtration are relatively new on the scene so there is still a lot of misinformation about how effective they can be or how much maintenance they require. It seems the days are almost over when the mention of a bog would bring on the doom and gloomers - I used to routinely hear "oh sure, your fish are fine NOW! Just you WAIT!" I'm still waiting... and enjoying my bog!

@Meyer Jordan - remind me... what did we decide bogs should really be called? I have "wetland filter" stuck in my head, but I feel like it was a three word description. Maybe "manmade wetland filter"?

I understand completely. Being in the suburbs also, I have a couple of thousand sq ft less than you. My house is a good size ( we did 3 extensions and an in-ground pool ) over many years so outdoor space is disappearing. I'm big into landscaping, some specimen trees & perennials, etc. Now our 3 girls are also out, married and there are 4 grandsons with #5 in the oven. So, in 2012, I put a bundle into rebuilding the pond. Today I did the infamous PP treatment. I also ran 80 foot of 2" pvc from my backwash to an area in the trees and shrubs where it will stop flooding my neighbors garden. He's a cool guy and said, it's only water going into his garden but, I decided to redo it. I should post a before pp and after pp in the morning. Water actually looks like glass and the colors on the koi are so vivid, it always amazes me. I probably won't do pp again until late fall, maybe once if there's a cool summer day and sun isn't blazing.

So, bogs are cool, mine is cool and it all works. I guess I enjoy working on it. At this point, retrofitting a bog would be a lot of work and defeat the system I have in place. I guess we all have our preferences and mine is maybe more sterile looking to you, understandably so, but I love sitting down by these guys with amazing clarity and meditating on a big rock I have in place.

You have to admit, it is an amazing passion and most can't relate. So to me and to you I'm sure, running 80' of pvc, glueing and working isn't work at all... plus, I have all the time in the world. I have a slap tear in my shoulder but it's going to have to wait until winter ...lol ...

So all's good Lisa, bog or unbog ..lol ... reading above just now and yikes, no water changes and they'll bury me for doing pp treatments ... hahaha ... To each is own his/her own, right? Enjoy!!!
<>< <>< <><

 

[barryian]

Saw this given as advice on Facebook. Any comments?

"Smaller but often water changes are best (25%), every 2 or 3 days pulling water from the bottom of the pond. This is where the "Heavy" Water is, heavy in bad bacterial."

ugh! 25% every 2-3 days ... who's doing that? With all due respect to everyone, water changes throughout the web are quite controversial but, for most part, changes seem to heavily trump no changes.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

ugh! 25% every 2-3 days ... who's doing that? With all due respect to everyone, water changes throughout the web are quite controversial but, for most part, changes seem to heavily trump no changes.

Many of the posts advocating water changes are from individuals that have dedicated Koi ponds. The uneducated that own garden ponds immediately interpret as applying to all ponds. So the practice of water changes proliferates, not based on knowledge or scientific fact, but based on what someone heard someone else say that owned an expensive (dedicated) pond.
Even the 'Koi Kichi' folk are gradually moving away from this practice because it is a stress inducer in fish and opting for a less intrusive means of controlling Nitrate.

 

[barryian]

Many of the posts advocating water changes are from individuals that have dedicated Koi ponds. The uneducated that own garden ponds immediately interpret as applying to all ponds. So the practice of water changes proliferates, not based on knowledge or scientific fact, but based on what someone heard someone else say that owned an expensive (dedicated) pond.
Even the 'Koi Kichi' folk are gradually moving away from this practice because it is a stress inducer in fish and opting for a less intrusive means of controlling Nitrate.

I being one of those individuals, still advocate water changes ...
What I've learned over the years was from online reading and books, many books. Find a book, five or more years old that says " do no water changes " on your dedicated koi pond! You probably won't. So, I've gone by the book to some degree and my own experience throughout the years. My pond is a dedicated koi pond. @Meyer Jordan ... Meyer, where do you see these articles re: no water changes. I truly would love to read a few and there deep info re: why. I literally can't find any that say, " No " ... In a closed system, how can toxins not build? Koi Health is a blog you've probably seen, not selling products. Read the first paragraph only ... http://www.koihealth.info/water-changes.html ...

These are the kind of bit's and pieces of info I see mostly. Linus Pauling won, I believe a Nobel Prize for his vitamin C cold killer and years later, bang, down the drain went that. I guess, nothing is definitive, things in life keep changing. If it works and has been working, then it can't necessarily be bad. Prior to super storm Sandy, I had 20 year old koi. Water changes didn't seem to cause them any harm in 20 years. Again, going by my own experience and I'm not saying no water changes are wrong. It works for Lisa and for Addy but they have bogs. I'm not that familiar with bogs.

On the other side of the coin, there are 3 parts to this You Tube. I had it saved in my files. 3/4 through the first video, he talks about water. Everything I'm doing is wrong according to this fellow. You'll agree with this, I'm sure.

I have no means to trickle water in my pond. I do have an underground tank where the overflow goes. If I did this method of trickling, it would be simple if I had the water line near the pond. This makes sense as it's slowly refreshing the water. Still this is a water change, right?
He mentioned 10 gallons per minute. Gosh, that would be turning my pond over every 3-1/2 hours. The water company would love me. He must have been talking about a huge pond.

So now I have a # 1. and can't get down there to delete it ...lol ...

 

[barryian]

This is a before and after a pp treatment. The latter shot is at night 2 hours after the water cleared. Somewhat distorted but shows the clarity. The koi are actually swimming near the bottom 3-4 feet down. By morning, it looks like a sheet of glass.

I see videos on the forum. Are they all fromYouTube or can videos be uploaded? Thx

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Read the first paragraph only ... http://www.koihealth.info/water-changes.html ...

The first paragraph addresses build-ups of Ammonia and Nitrite. Evidence of either new pond syndrome or a failed or insufficient bio-conversion system. Hardly a case for regular water changes.
Not even going to address the subject of pheromones as there is absolutely no scientific evidence that these even exist (other than sex pheromones) or impact an aquatic system.
I am familiar with this series of videos and, yes, for the most part, I do agree with what the gentleman says. I also agree with your assessment that 10 gal/hr is not a trickle. And a trickle is what it must be so as not to abruptly alter the water temperature or chemistry. By use of the trickle method, the percentage of water added to total water column capacity is minuscule. The water added by trickle is quickly absorbed into the main body and moderated to conform to the existing water quality parameters. The trickle method imparts no stress to fish, it does not negatively impact any other aquatic organism planktonic or sessile and it will not impact the any bio-conversion.
In Japan, the Koi breeders each Spring move fish to grow-out ponds (mud ponds) for the summer where a natural diet and environment is available that will promote growth. These ponds are never subjected to water changes.The only time that water is removed is prior to Winter, after the fish are moved indoors, when the ponds are drained and left empty until the following Spring when they are re-fertilized, refilled and re-populated.
If water changes are not necessary during the most metabolically and biologically active months in an earthen pond then why would such a practice be necessary in a artificially lined pond?

 

[MitchM]

View attachment 90280 View attachment 90281 This is a before and after a pp treatment. The latter shot is at night 2 hours after the water cleared. Somewhat distorted but shows the clarity. The koi are actually swimming near the bottom 3-4 feet down. By morning, it looks like a sheet of glass.

I see videos on the forum. Are they all fromYouTube or can videos be uploaded? Thx

Regarding Potassium Permanganate treatment for oxidizing organics, why would you not use ozone injection instead?
Potassium Permanganate leaves behind a residual component of Manganese Dioxide while ozone injection leaves behind O2.
The PP treatment seems like sudden shock to the pond, while ozone injection can be a steady application, kind of like a trickle water change.
.......If one is going to use PP treatment anyways.

.

 

[barryian]

The first paragraph addresses build-ups of Ammonia and Nitrite. Evidence of either new pond syndrome or a failed or insufficient bio-conversion system. Hardly a case for regular water changes.
Not even going to address the subject of pheromones as there is absolutely no scientific evidence that these even exist (other than sex pheromones) or impact an aquatic system.
I am familiar with this series of videos and, yes, for the most part, I do agree with what the gentleman says. I also agree with your assessment that 10 gal/hr is not a trickle. And a trickle is what it must be so as not to abruptly alter the water temperature or chemistry. By use of the trickle method, the percentage of water added to total water column capacity is minuscule. The water added by trickle is quickly absorbed into the main body and moderated to conform to the existing water quality parameters. The trickle method imparts no stress to fish, it does not negatively impact any other aquatic organism planktonic or sessile and it will not impact the any bio-conversion.
In Japan, the Koi breeders each Spring move fish to grow-out ponds (mud ponds) for the summer where a natural diet and environment is available that will promote growth. These ponds are never subjected to water changes.The only time that water is removed is prior to Winter, after the fish are moved indoors, when the ponds are drained and left empty until the following Spring when they are re-fertilized, refilled and re-populated.
If water changes are not necessary during the most metabolically and biologically active months in an earthen pond then why would such a practice be necessary in a artificially lined pond?

Trying to absorb this. I agree as that is hardly a reason for water changes. I just referenced the first paragraph because of water changes in general, period. That's mainly what you find throughout blogs online. The exception is the Part I of the video trilogy. Again, that is a water change but with low or no impact and I can see how that is beneficial. Do you know what a trickle effect would be in gallons added per the size of a pond in gallons??? I'll search that out. It would interest me if there were a way to implement that into my system. I can see how that water exchange would be no work except for backwashing the bead filter on occasion. .

But aren't you and others saying that trickle water system isn't even necessary if water parameters stay in sink??? In ponds, earthen ponds, they evaporate losing quite a bit of water. If it isn't fed by a natural spring and rain isn't enough to level the playing field, wouldn't there be a buildup of something and wouldn't that something hold true in my closed system??? I would think phosphates, toxins of some sort, would build since I have no plants ... do to no shelves, a mistake in the build. The best I do is put water lettuce and hyacinth in floating baskets wired to the sides when the season allows ... If you could answer my 3 questions, I'd greatly appreciate it. I do have an area to trench a line 70' using pecs and tie it into the falls. There must be a control to precisely have the flow correct based on the gallons. This is interesting. Thx.

 

[barryian]

Regarding Potassium Permanganate treatment for oxidizing organics, why would you not use ozone injection instead?
Potassium Permanganate leaves behind a residual component of Manganese Dioxide while ozone injection leaves behind O2.
The PP treatment seems like sudden shock to the pond, while ozone injection can be a steady application, kind of like a trickle water change.
.......If one is going to use PP treatment anyways.

.

I can't say I ever thought about that. Ozone injection would be a bactericide and possibly a viricide
along with removing organics and pathogens, correct? I've used pp for so many many years, it's become a habit. I usually only do it now in the cooler weather as temp doesn't affect it, and in the late fall, a month before closing. So how does that work? Does the O2 become O3 and what is the by product, Co2? Not up on this. Do you use one or do you have a bog, I don't recall? I assume they're costly for a good unit? They do kill the gamut, though I would imagine from what I've read in the past.
The pp I guess would be a shock in comparison. They are swimming around the bottom throughout the 6-7 hours apparently unscathed. I think if one is inexperienced, not using a gram scale and knowing their exact gallonage, and keeping an eye out, it could be a nightmare. Done correctly, it's second nature. I haven't known anyone with an ozone generator. I know they're used in pools but I use a chlorine generator as I converted to salt.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

As I have stated many times before, water changes may be required in a dedicated Koi pond because of the biological and environmental sterility of that particular aquatic environment. The almost complete absence of naturally occurring checks and balances mandates that artificial means be employed to maintain what I call minimal water quality. Water quality IMO encompasses not only the usually tested physical and chemical properties but also biological properties.
In an eco-pond, even a trickle system is not required.
Your style of pond may require water changes, my style of pond will not.

 

[barryian]

As I have stated many times before, water changes may be required in a dedicated Koi pond because of the biological and environmental sterility of that particular aquatic environment. The almost complete absence of naturally occurring checks and balances mandates that artificial means be employed to maintain what I call minimal water quality. Water quality IMO encompasses not only the usually tested physical and chemical properties but also biological properties.
In an eco-pond, even a trickle system is not required.
Your style of pond may require water changes, my style of pond will not.

All I add is baking soda to my skimmer as the kH depletes. Other than that, no chemicals are needed
as all seems to maintain a fine balance.
So, if all water parameters are fine Meyer, what are the water changes actually removing in a system as mine?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

All I add is baking soda to my skimmer as the kH depletes. Other than that, no chemicals are needed
as all seems to maintain a fine balance.
So, if all water parameters are fine Meyer, what are the water changes actually removing in a system as mine?

Typically in a dedicated Koi pond, water changes are used to reduce Nitrate levels, and maybe Phosphorus, since there are no plants to perform this process. In your pond, only you can determine if water changes are actually removing anything

 

[cas]

So, if all water parameters are fine Meyer, what are the water changes actually removing in a system as mine?

I was wondering the same thing. (Learning lots from this thread.)