Wild fish found in Koi Pond

Discussion in 'Introductions' started by Camperpond, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. Camperpond

    Craig58

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    Those Koi purists don't know what they are missing! :razz:

    Some of the ghost koi can be quite beautiful and I've found them, for some weird reason, to be the friendlist fish in the pond.

    Craig
     
    Craig58, Oct 11, 2012
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  2. Camperpond

    Dave 54

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    Craig I'm totally in agreement with you there but its a fact that not many keep them .
    We have a beautiful brown doitsu that weve had for 26 years see photos on welcome page that when we still had that huge indoor setup used to come and suck on my elbow and is normally one of the first koi up to see me.
    Interestingly the Chagio and the Ochebai are considered the friendlest koi in the koi world Propper I have a beautiful Ochiba we ar growing on see Photo along with a Photo of the Ochiba we sold some years ago

    s Ochiba_small.jpg IM000144.JPG



    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Oct 11, 2012
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  3. Camperpond

    Fishylove

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    Looking at the pic you posted Camp, it looks like it could have barbels/ wiskers? Does it? And yes they can cross :)
     
    Fishylove, Oct 11, 2012
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  4. Camperpond

    CountryEscape

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    Thanks, Craig. I knew the first pic was a goldfish, posted it for comparison, but I'm glad you also agree the second one is koi. I also did not know that koi/goldfish cross babies do not have barbels! If that's the case, then I have no way of knowing if the fish I am calling goldfish (colored like goldfish, etc.) from my first year (2011) babies are pure goldfish or hybrids. Darn it! Guess I'm not going to worry about it, just enjoy them.
    I've seen many posts about the Chagoi (brown) koi being the friendliest, and to have one helps your other koi become more friendly. I don't have a chagoi, but my original koi purchased from a koi breeder in IN were VERY friendly, having been hand fed since birth, so didn't need one. I didn't know the brown koi were called "Ghost". I thought ones that were more gray, hence the ghost coloring, were. Learning new things every day on here! I got a Kumonryu in that original purchase, only because my sister in AZ said I "had to get a black koi, they bring you luck!" I call him Shamu, and he's gorgeous! It's my understanding this coloration (white with black) changes colors many times in it's life, too.
    Here are a couple of pics of Shamu when I first got him, still in "cooler", and then later last summer in the pond. (BTW, the tiny Sanke above the black koi in first pic is now white with a few gray splotches, and this was my favorite pick that day, so pretty unhappy about losing all the red and black changing to gray or disappearing.)
    Shamu - black koi with white belly and red on head.jpg Shamu in center, Asagi bottom.JPG
    Then Asagi (or at least that's what I call it, not sure if it's correct or not ...) before and after being put in the pond. In the pic with the orange koi, you can see how the red has moved up onto the top of the tail end of the koi on the one I'm calling Asagi. Could have been it was still scared when I took the pic in the cooler, though.
    Little Asagi koi.jpg Asagi.JPG Bright orange female.JPG
    This koi was purchased last December, spent the winter in my basement "pond" (kiddie pool set up). It was called a Doitsu Ochiba Shigure. Correct?
    I have another one that is similar, but no stripe on it's side. They are very close in coloration, and have gotten prettier and prettier as they have grown.
    5 in Doitsu Ochiba Shigure 2.jpg
    I'm of the opinion lots of koi change their color as they mature and grow. Maybe I've just found low quality koi, but I enjoy watching the changes in them nonetheless! :)
     
    CountryEscape, Oct 11, 2012
    #24
  5. Camperpond

    Fishylove

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    Morning country! Did you get them here in Evansville?!? I too have a black one for "good luck" :) it looks some what as yours and is about 8" long, black background coloring, and where yours has gold stripes down the sides, he has white ones, almost in a v pattern toward the tail. As I moved them back to their repaired pond yesterday, he is showing flecks of gold. I too really like to watch them change color, the koi, I believe this happens normally throughout their life time. I'll try and get a picture of him, he's Very hard to net lol
     
    Fishylove, Oct 11, 2012
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  6. Camperpond

    Craig58

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    I'd ask Dave for his thoughts on this fish but my initial thoughts are that it is not an Ochiba Shigure. I'm no expert on Koi and I only know my own and some of the more common variations though. First I think you have a butterfly version as the shape is not what I would expect and the finnage is longer than I think it should be. Hard to see details of the head though. It is a Doitsu as it is scaleless.

    I don't think the Ochiba Shigure's should have black in them, or at least very little. The translation of Ochiba Shigure is "Autumn leaves on the water". It is usually a pairing of a Chagoi (brown) with a Sorigoi (grey).

    I'd say with all that black in it, your's might have been Chagoi with a Yotsushiro or maybe a Kumonryu? there is brown under there and it's not at all uncommon for the black to fade out with age and the underlaying colors pop out. So who knows? That's kind of the fun with Koi. You never quite end up with what you thought you were getting!!!

    Here's a web site of a number of varities of Koi: http://www.koivillage.com/koiid/pg2.htm

    In either case, I don't think the Chagoi based fish reach their potential until they get big, (24"+).

    He should grow into a pretty cool looking fish.

    Craig
     
    Craig58, Oct 11, 2012
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  7. Camperpond

    Craig58

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    Brown Koi are not Ghost Koi. They would usually be Chagoi.

    Ghost Koi are a hybrid of wild carp and Ogon koi. They should look like they got a suit of armour on. Metallic looking, silverish. They often have a lot of black on them.

    http://www.shropshir...r-ghost-koi.jpg

    http://www.carpco.co.uk/10cm-ghost-koi-pi-37.html?image=0&osCsid=39a46310672f90fede3e26bbb3bf6f6f

    Craig
     
    Craig58, Oct 11, 2012
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  8. Camperpond

    capewind

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    So the opinion is hybrids absolutely can NOT have whiskers? We had a couple of babies, that while tiny, really didnt look "normal" when compared to babies we knew for sure were koi, comets, or shubunkins... so was guessing them to be hybrids, BUT they had whiskers. When I say tiny, I mean well under the 1 - 1.5" being discussed here. NOW, they are about 3" and they sure as heck look like koi (butterfly) to me... and IMO are really pretty. Was going to wait a couple more months and post pics again, to see if folks thought koi or hybrid...
     
    capewind, Oct 11, 2012
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  9. Camperpond

    Craig58

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    I've never heard of crossbreds having barbels/whiskers.

    Koi barbels are usually pretty evident, even on babies if you can get a good head on view. You shouldn't need to squint to see them on a 1-2" fish. They don't "grow" them like whiskers. They are either there or they aren't. They only get bigger as the fish get bigger. They don't increase their relative proportions.

    The crosses would also normally be very drab with no color. There are the exceptions that make the rule but normally, they are dull browns with lighter botttoms. But some Koi can also be very dull in color as well.

    Craig
     
    Craig58, Oct 11, 2012
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  10. Camperpond

    digginponds pondaholic

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    I have new babies,and they have no real color still black.But from past experiences goldfish or koi will start to get there color after awhile.I think it is nature's way of protecting them as fry'sUnless they are black.I have a koi that is black with silver
    [ghost koi}
    on the under belly and nose.Maybe that is the mom, of my new babies,who knows.I expect next year to see some colors,hopefully,as that is the only black/silver koi I have.I'll be suprised to see who the daddy could be.
    Also birds can drop eggs in your ponds.I'm pretty sure that is how the beginning of life started.Of course it is on my opinion
     
    digginponds, Oct 11, 2012
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  11. Camperpond

    capewind

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    I'll be very happy if two in particular are definitely koi. One I am pretty sure that it is koi now. The other, I am hoping. It most definitely has barbels, and its color has gone nearly pure black (including the belly), with really long fins (we have both standard fin and butterflies). The only color on it is faint tracings on the head in silver.
     
    capewind, Oct 11, 2012
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  12. Camperpond

    Dave 54

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    The meaning of the Ochiba Shiguri I believe is Rain on Autumn Leaves Craig

    rgrds

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Oct 11, 2012
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  13. Camperpond

    Craig58

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    I'll take your word on that. I can only go by what I can look up and every reference I've found has been some variation of "leaves on the water".

    Craig
     
    Craig58, Oct 11, 2012
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  14. Camperpond

    CountryEscape

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    Of the goldfish babies I have had, either they are born black, change to orange, or they are born orange/white and variations of that. I have a tiny baby that I just found in the goldfish pond, it's only about 1", and it's white, has red on the tail and a couple tiny spots on the belly, and a black spot on the head. My orange/white variations have kept their color from last year to this year. The only ones that are changing are the black ones.
    I'm still waiting to hear if anyone has raised fantail babies in their ponds! I have about a dozen of different sizes and wondering if I will ever get any babies, or maybe they will cross breed with the Sarassas, Comets, Shubunkins.
     
    CountryEscape, Oct 12, 2012
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  15. Camperpond

    Fishylove

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    Hmmm I haven't gotten any babies yet :( maybe I have all of the same sex? Phooey lol, guess I'll just have to keep buying till I have both :D
     
    Fishylove, Oct 12, 2012
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  16. Camperpond

    CountryEscape

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    Fishy, you are close enough to come get some from me in the spring! I'd give you goldfish, and I'll have koi too in the spring. I know I have 4 koi babies, and I also have several larger ones that are same color so will be getting rid of some of them, too. Can't remember do you have goldfish or koi or both? Either way, I'd have plenty to share, and some really pretty Comets (long fins) and of the 4 baby koi, one looks to be butterfly as well!
     
    CountryEscape, Oct 12, 2012
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  17. Camperpond

    Fishylove

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    I have several koi, two comets, a shubby, two carnival goldfish :D a handful of fantails and ryunkins So far no babies from the fantails LOL I would love to come visit you country! Have lots of lots of plant starts I could bring ya if you want em. I got a ton of clearance plants today from a nursery here :D and the 27th hubby is taking me to a plant auction!! Can't wait.... But today I got a new elephant ear called 'Mojito' have you seen it? Beautiful! Everything I got can be split; roots are busting at the seams!
    got several Irises, including a Variegated Japanese Iris :)
    Also a 'Bird of Paradise' canna, and a Huge Palm for 9$ and lots of other stuff. Lol.... Can you tell I'm excited?!?!? Lol. Have you ever split canna's this will be my first year with canna's ( really first year with Tropicals period).
     
    Fishylove, Oct 12, 2012
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  18. Camperpond

    CountryEscape

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    OMG, Fishy, you got some great plants!!! I got two Mojito Elephant Ears this past summer, from Ebay, but they are pretty small yet. Going to over winter them inside. I soooo bad want a Japanese Iris!!! It was my goal to find one this summer, no luck. Saw them at the St. Louis Botanical Gardens, and they are outstanding specimens! If yours multiplies, I'd love to get a start from it.
    I didn't care much for the cannas I had this year, but maybe I got cheapos. They either didn't bloom (ok, I understand maybe first year won't) or got really tall, with a little bitty bloom. Figured I did something wrong. Going to save only a few of them and see if they do better next year. Like the shorter more compact plants. I think I got a grab bag of bulbs, so probably nothing fancy. Going to save my black taros, my two largest elephant ears (which are only about 3' tall at most each) and the new plants that will come inside with the banana plant that is in the same pot with them. I also got a 6' tall palm from Menards this summer for $11, that one has to come inside, too. My sliding glass door is going to be full of plants, I fear! Always loved the bird of paradise plants! Bet that Canna is gorgeous!
    I also have 3 tropical water lilies to bring inside but they are still growing really well. The King of Siam has 3 flower buds, but they are not coming to the surface to bloom, so maybe too cold. That's ok, just glad it's growing really well so next year it will be even larger and I'll be able to split it. Have that one (deep purple) a deep red night bloomer (that's supposed to stay open until about 9 or 10 a.m.) and another deep rose colored tropical day bloomer.
    You were surely jesting on the "27th husband" part, right?!!! LOL
     
    CountryEscape, Oct 13, 2012
    #38
  19. Camperpond

    Fishylove

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    There are several risomes in the gallon pot I got.... :) I would love to share!

    My HARTY Banana tree had a baby.... Yes I said HARTY :D it's your if you want it?



    I'll take pictures of the plants I got, it has several offspring in the pot, needs transplanting soon I suppose. For sure needs a bigger pot! Lol. It's gorgeous... I just hope it survives in my house, what with the kids the pig and a cat lol!

    I hope so... But with your bad luck with them this year, hope I plant them right this spring.

    Oops :D typo lol. On the 27th of October! My husband is taking me to a plant auction hahaha :) nursery going out of business
    NoNo. Not planning on EVER getting remarried again.. Much less 27 times haha :D
     
    Fishylove, Oct 13, 2012
    #39
  20. Camperpond

    CountryEscape

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    My green banana tree is a hardy, too, but I'm going to bring it in, didn't plant it outside yet. Hear you have to mulch it pretty well to survive the winter, unless we have another one like last winter! I have a green/red leaf banana, too, and it has about 5 offshoots. As soon as I figure out how to separate them, I'll share as well!!! We will have to visit each other sometime, maybe in the spring when we can share fish and plants and stories! I would really enjoy that. I would drive that far no problem just to get a start of that Japanese Iris! When I spotted them at the botanical gardens, I was in awe. Very different flowers than a normal iris, just gorgeous! You will want to separate it and put it all around so you get lots of places with that pretty flower next year.
    Haha, whew! Maybe I'll wait until after Oct. 27 to come visit. LOL Glad that was the case, and not the 27th husband! I probably just read it wrong. :)
    HOLD ON!!! Did you say you have a PIG in your house? I want pictures! :LOL: :luxlove: :LOL:
     
    CountryEscape, Oct 13, 2012
    #40
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