Wild fish found in Koi Pond

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Not sure if these pics will help at all, but since the topic is open here, I'd like more opinions!
I had babies last year in my koi/goldfish pond, and pretty sure they were all goldfish. I think I'd better look at some of them closer though to be sure. This year, I moved as many of the goldfish as I could catch to the new goldfish only pond, but there were still about 6 I could not catch. The big orange koi spawned, I saw her get chased, but never saw for sure when she spawned, so don't know who fertilized the eggs ... or ate them! I had more goldfish babies, or probably they were already born, just hiding, so now have more to move.
The first pic is a goldfish that I caught and moved. It's not a good pic, taking in a 2 qt measuring bowl, but this is a baby from this year, in August. It was about 3-4" long already (my koi pond where it was born is over 4,000 gal.).
Baby goldfish.JPG
These next pics are of one of the 4 fish that I was pretty sure were koi babies, and confirmed this one has whiskers. I have no idea if they are koi or cross with the goldfish, but am hoping they are koi.
Baby koi has whiskers.JPGOrange head baby koi.JPGKoi face.JPG
In this pic you can see a koi on the left that is dark (almost black) and has orange on his head. I'm wondering if this may be the dad, as the solid orange female in the second pic I know was being chased, so likely the mom.
Possible Daddy 2.JPGBright orange female.JPG
All the babies are similarly marked to this black and orange koi (I also have one identical, but more yellow/orange on the head - they are the "twins").
I'd like an opinion as to whether the baby I'm calling a koi looks like a koi, or goi (goldfish/koi cross). It doesn't matter to me, but am just curious. :)
 
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Whiskers = koi
Without whiskers = goldfish or cross

If the OP can simply tell us firsthand if the 1-1.5" babies have whiskers or not, the issue will be resolved.

With whiskers, the fish stork dropped off 5 fertilized eggs into your pond.
Without whiskers, your Butterfly and goldfish made whoopie.

I can't tell one way or the other from the posted pic.

Country - first pic is a goldfish. Second pic is a koi.

Craig

PS> I have ghost koi. Considered chagoi here. Some purists don't consider them "real" koi. Kind of like butterflies. But our's are the friendliest fish in the pond and are among our favorites.
 
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I had a trawl through ebay here in the UK for Ghost koi that where up for sale and found this photo of a bowl full of them.
As you can see they are exactly the same as the ones posted in the original Photo koi unlike goldfish are stuck with the colour they are born with so there should be little change in the colour of this one .
The facial features are exactly the same .

rgrds

Dave

Dave,

I don't believe the fish in the original pic has any gold or highlights on it. The rock behind it is yellow/gold. I believe any color you see is mostly a factor of the lighting from the picture/flash/aquarium lights. It is probably almost all black or brown.

Your comment about Koi being stuck with there color is untrue. Koi often change color. I have one that loses it black when the temperature drops! I don't collect high end koi and as such know firsthand that many reds fade. I have ghost koi that is mostly black but when the temps go up the black fades and yellow/gold highlights come through. I have a white koi that was similar to a sanke but the red is now almost all gone except for about a 1/8" spot.

Craig
 
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Dave,

I don't believe the fish in the original pic has any gold or highlights on it. The rock behind it is yellow/gold. I believe any color you see is mostly a factor of the lighting from the picture/flash/aquarium lights. It is probably almost all black or brown.

Your comment about Koi being stuck with there color is untrue. Koi often change color. I have one that loses it black when the temperature drops! I don't collect high end koi and as such know firsthand that many reds fade. I have ghost koi that is mostly black but when the temps go up the black fades and yellow/gold highlights come through. I have a white koi that was similar to a sanke but the red is now almost all gone except for about a 1/8" spot.

Craig

My comment was about the fish we were talking about i;e the ghost koi and not koi Carp propper.
We have one that is still the same colour as it was born with being closer to the original Carp having the drab colouring of a wild Carp the one we still have it's face is the same colour as the one that sparked this thread......
High end koi as you call them do change colour yes that I'm totally in agreement with you on that point.
They have been bred for this over generstions by those koi master breeders in Japan, laterly in Israel and other countrys including the UK and US all of which are catching up with the masters with some stunning koi of their own.
Interstingly you can only alter the Red or Hi and tone up the white , the black or sumi is a fixed colour that cannot b altered.it will only grow to the boundry set out in the koi and no more
This can be done best by feeding your koi King Tiger Prawns or food rich in ceratine which serves to deepen the Hi , the white is best given a beautiful lustre by feeding them silk worm pupea or pellets made from the silk worm pupea
Ghost koi are almost often found four sale in Garden Centres and the Tropical fish outlets you will not see them in a koi dealership,
Many koi keepers regard the ghost as the koi no self respecting koi keepinf purist would own.
But at the same time conveniately forgetting that these are the Carp that we broke our teeth on before falling in love with Koi Carp propper.moving on to those living jewels called koi carp
Goldfish however ditch the black they were born with and become goldfish propper unless you are black moor who in adult life seem to start changing colour away from the black , I know not why .
Strange is it that the face is the only thing to reflect yellow in the original Photo why not the rest of the fish especially the dorsal, pectoral, pelvic anal and tail fins.
We will have to wait and see what comes out on the face i;e barbles .

rgrds

Dave
 
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Ghost koi are almost often found four sale in Garden Centres and the Tropical fish outlets you will not see them in a koi dealership,
Many koi keepers regard the ghost as the koi no self respecting koi keepinf purist would own.
But at the same time conveniately forgetting that these are the Carp that we broke our teeth on before falling in love with Koi Carp propper.moving on to those living jewels called koi carp

Those Koi purists don't know what they are missing! :razz:

Some of the ghost koi can be quite beautiful and I've found them, for some weird reason, to be the friendlist fish in the pond.

Craig
 
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Craig I'm totally in agreement with you there but its a fact that not many keep them .
We have a beautiful brown doitsu that weve had for 26 years see photos on welcome page that when we still had that huge indoor setup used to come and suck on my elbow and is normally one of the first koi up to see me.
Interestingly the Chagio and the Ochebai are considered the friendlest koi in the koi world Propper I have a beautiful Ochiba we ar growing on see Photo along with a Photo of the Ochiba we sold some years ago

s Ochiba_small.jpgIM000144.JPG



Dave
 
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Thanks, Craig. I knew the first pic was a goldfish, posted it for comparison, but I'm glad you also agree the second one is koi. I also did not know that koi/goldfish cross babies do not have barbels! If that's the case, then I have no way of knowing if the fish I am calling goldfish (colored like goldfish, etc.) from my first year (2011) babies are pure goldfish or hybrids. Darn it! Guess I'm not going to worry about it, just enjoy them.
I've seen many posts about the Chagoi (brown) koi being the friendliest, and to have one helps your other koi become more friendly. I don't have a chagoi, but my original koi purchased from a koi breeder in IN were VERY friendly, having been hand fed since birth, so didn't need one. I didn't know the brown koi were called "Ghost". I thought ones that were more gray, hence the ghost coloring, were. Learning new things every day on here! I got a Kumonryu in that original purchase, only because my sister in AZ said I "had to get a black koi, they bring you luck!" I call him Shamu, and he's gorgeous! It's my understanding this coloration (white with black) changes colors many times in it's life, too.
Here are a couple of pics of Shamu when I first got him, still in "cooler", and then later last summer in the pond. (BTW, the tiny Sanke above the black koi in first pic is now white with a few gray splotches, and this was my favorite pick that day, so pretty unhappy about losing all the red and black changing to gray or disappearing.)
Shamu - black koi with white belly and red on head.jpgShamu in center, Asagi bottom.JPG
Then Asagi (or at least that's what I call it, not sure if it's correct or not ...) before and after being put in the pond. In the pic with the orange koi, you can see how the red has moved up onto the top of the tail end of the koi on the one I'm calling Asagi. Could have been it was still scared when I took the pic in the cooler, though.
Little Asagi koi.jpgAsagi.JPGBright orange female.JPG
This koi was purchased last December, spent the winter in my basement "pond" (kiddie pool set up). It was called a Doitsu Ochiba Shigure. Correct?
I have another one that is similar, but no stripe on it's side. They are very close in coloration, and have gotten prettier and prettier as they have grown.
5 in Doitsu Ochiba Shigure 2.jpg
I'm of the opinion lots of koi change their color as they mature and grow. Maybe I've just found low quality koi, but I enjoy watching the changes in them nonetheless! :)
 
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Morning country! Did you get them here in Evansville?!? I too have a black one for "good luck" :) it looks some what as yours and is about 8" long, black background coloring, and where yours has gold stripes down the sides, he has white ones, almost in a v pattern toward the tail. As I moved them back to their repaired pond yesterday, he is showing flecks of gold. I too really like to watch them change color, the koi, I believe this happens normally throughout their life time. I'll try and get a picture of him, he's Very hard to net lol
 
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This koi was purchased last December, spent the winter in my basement "pond" (kiddie pool set up). It was called a Doitsu Ochiba Shigure. Correct?
I have another one that is similar, but no stripe on it's side. They are very close in coloration, and have gotten prettier and prettier as they have grown.
View attachment 48280
I'm of the opinion lots of koi change their color as they mature and grow. Maybe I've just found low quality koi, but I enjoy watching the changes in them nonetheless! :)

I'd ask Dave for his thoughts on this fish but my initial thoughts are that it is not an Ochiba Shigure. I'm no expert on Koi and I only know my own and some of the more common variations though. First I think you have a butterfly version as the shape is not what I would expect and the finnage is longer than I think it should be. Hard to see details of the head though. It is a Doitsu as it is scaleless.

I don't think the Ochiba Shigure's should have black in them, or at least very little. The translation of Ochiba Shigure is "Autumn leaves on the water". It is usually a pairing of a Chagoi (brown) with a Sorigoi (grey).

I'd say with all that black in it, your's might have been Chagoi with a Yotsushiro or maybe a Kumonryu? there is brown under there and it's not at all uncommon for the black to fade out with age and the underlaying colors pop out. So who knows? That's kind of the fun with Koi. You never quite end up with what you thought you were getting!!!

Here's a web site of a number of varities of Koi: http://www.koivillage.com/koiid/pg2.htm

In either case, I don't think the Chagoi based fish reach their potential until they get big, (24"+).

He should grow into a pretty cool looking fish.

Craig
 
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I've seen many posts about the Chagoi (brown) koi being the friendliest, and to have one helps your other koi become more friendly. I don't have a chagoi, but my original koi purchased from a koi breeder in IN were VERY friendly, having been hand fed since birth, so didn't need one. I didn't know the brown koi were called "Ghost". I thought ones that were more gray, hence the ghost coloring, were. Learning new things every day on here!

Brown Koi are not Ghost Koi. They would usually be Chagoi.

Ghost Koi are a hybrid of wild carp and Ogon koi. They should look like they got a suit of armour on. Metallic looking, silverish. They often have a lot of black on them.

http://www.shropshir...r-ghost-koi.jpg

http://www.carpco.co.uk/10cm-ghost-koi-pi-37.html?image=0&osCsid=39a46310672f90fede3e26bbb3bf6f6f

Craig
 
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Whiskers = koi
Without whiskers = goldfish or cross

So the opinion is hybrids absolutely can NOT have whiskers? We had a couple of babies, that while tiny, really didnt look "normal" when compared to babies we knew for sure were koi, comets, or shubunkins... so was guessing them to be hybrids, BUT they had whiskers. When I say tiny, I mean well under the 1 - 1.5" being discussed here. NOW, they are about 3" and they sure as heck look like koi (butterfly) to me... and IMO are really pretty. Was going to wait a couple more months and post pics again, to see if folks thought koi or hybrid...
 
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I've never heard of crossbreds having barbels/whiskers.

Koi barbels are usually pretty evident, even on babies if you can get a good head on view. You shouldn't need to squint to see them on a 1-2" fish. They don't "grow" them like whiskers. They are either there or they aren't. They only get bigger as the fish get bigger. They don't increase their relative proportions.

The crosses would also normally be very drab with no color. There are the exceptions that make the rule but normally, they are dull browns with lighter botttoms. But some Koi can also be very dull in color as well.

Craig
 

digginponds

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I have new babies,and they have no real color still black.But from past experiences goldfish or koi will start to get there color after awhile.I think it is nature's way of protecting them as fry'sUnless they are black.I have a koi that is black with silver
[ghost koi}
on the under belly and nose.Maybe that is the mom, of my new babies,who knows.I expect next year to see some colors,hopefully,as that is the only black/silver koi I have.I'll be suprised to see who the daddy could be.
Also birds can drop eggs in your ponds.I'm pretty sure that is how the beginning of life started.Of course it is on my opinion
 

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