also over wintering in garage advice needed

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I guess that's my question, if you are getting false test results for ammonia, how do you know when the water has un-neutralized ammonia present at a later date? my next question is a bit stupid. If you can just nutrify the ammonia, why not just keep on doing it instead of getting the bio cycle going? How long do these nutifiers work?

Ammonia detoxifiers will last for about 24 - 48 hours. Then you have to reapply.
Water changes will temporarily dilute excess ammonia, but without a sufficient biofilter, the high ammonia level will return. Swings in water quality cause fish stress, putting them at risk of illness.
I still recommend what I said in this post:

...
You need a bigger tub, a pressure filter with bioballs or some other media, some ammonia detoxifier such as Prime or some zeolite or zeocarb that will sit in a bag in the filter or water column.
You will also need to test the ammonia and PH daily. Get a KH water test kit as well.
If you have a reputable pond or aquarium store, pick up some live starter bacteria. Make sure the starter bacteria package has an expiry date on it.
.

Although not ideal, I would add that regulator product for the fact that it will temporarily neutralize the ammonia. It's a phosphate based buffer, so it might promote algae growth which would help with water quality.
 
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If you have a Seachem dealer available, pick up an Ammonia Alert indicator from them. http://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php It will read only NH3, the toxic form of ammonia.
The liquid test kit you have will read Total ammonia, both NH3 and NH4, so even after you apply the ammonia detoxifier, you will still get positive ammonia readings.
 
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If I remember correctly, another member here started up a biofilm during the winter and the process took about 8 weeks.
Meyer Jordan helped him through that one.
This process will take a while.
 
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If you have a Seachem dealer available, pick up an Ammonia Alert indicator from them. http://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php It will read only NH3, the toxic form of ammonia.
The liquid test kit you have will read Total ammonia, both NH3 and NH4, so even after you apply the ammonia detoxifier, you will still get positive ammonia readings.
I saw them online and was wondering about its efficacy, I'll order one today, thanks again Mitch
 

Ruben Miranda

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Hello
Unforunatly there is no real quick way to cycle a tank, it is the nature of the beast.
I guess there is no pet store close by ? If there is you can call them and maybe they can sell you or give you some media that is astablished and put in your filter or a friend near you this will help qicken the cycle.
But the media would have to be put in some good water and in to a filter within a 1/2 hour or so as with out water flow the benificial bacteria will die.
I know you heard this but I feel it needs to be repeated
The reason you are having such a hard time
To many fish in a very small tank this is and will give you a big fight

Keep a good eye on the fish they will tell if things getting bad
Rapid breathing
Scrathing there body's against the tank or rocks/gravel
They will become listless and lay at the bottom.
These are indications there are problems

One thing don't do 100% water changes do 50 % no more then 75%
A cycle is kinda a double edge sword
You need the ammo and nitrites for the cycle But you don't want them to get so high that they kill, so there is a balence the reason you don't do a 100% water change is you will hurt the cycle or worse start it all over again.
Ruben
 
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they have not eaten for two weeks, I have an aerator now but no filter yet, working on that

the container is about 40g but going to move the big fish into a 75g today, I'll get a filter on the large tank this weekend, but will take time to create the biofilm from scratch, the 40g tub has about a 5 day head start. Should I introduce a bio additive into both tanks?

bio additive as in nitrifying bacteria... wont help much. Until the filter is recycled, the ammonia and nitrites will continue to rise after each water change.

Just keep testing the water every 5 days.. and of course keep a filter running and change the water when the nitrites or ammonia is too high. It will eventually stabilize.
 
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Hello
Unforunatly there is no real quick way to cycle a tank, it is the nature of the beast.
I guess there is no pet store close by ? If there is you can call them and maybe they can sell you or give you some media that is astablished and put in your filter or a friend near you this will help qicken the cycle.
But the media would have to be put in some good water and in to a filter within a 1/2 hour or so as with out water flow the benificial bacteria will die.
I know you heard this but I feel it needs to be repeated
The reason you are having such a hard time
To many fish in a very small tank this is and will give you a big fight

Keep a good eye on the fish they will tell if things getting bad
Rapid breathing
Scrathing there body's against the tank or rocks/gravel
They will become listless and lay at the bottom.
These are indications there are problems

One thing don't do 100% water changes do 50 % no more then 75%
A cycle is kinda a double edge sword
You need the ammo and nitrites for the cycle But you don't want them to get so high that they kill, so there is a balence the reason you don't do a 100% water change is you will hurt the cycle or worse start it all over again.
Ruben
I'm going to buy a used Eheim from someone locally, I think I can get it hooked up before the bacteria dies. I'll ask him to keep the unit running till I pick up the filter. Thanks for all your help Ruben, much appreciated, I'll also be moving the larger fish to the bigger tank today, after I get some water conditioner. Hopefully that will make them happier till good bacteria can be cycled.

question on your examples of stressed fish:
aren't they supposed to be semi-dormant in the cold and gather near the bottom where water should be warmer and easier to rest?
 

Ruben Miranda

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Hello

questionon your examples of stressed fish:
aren't they supposed to be semi-dormant in the cold and gather near the bottom where water should be warmer and easier to rest?

Yes in winter they go deeper water and they are slower, but there will be forward movement of some kind as that helps to flow the water thru the gills to get extract the air. Also they will not be or should not be laying down on the bottom. At least mine in the 4 foot area to down and sim around or be still about 2 or 4 inchs off the bottom.
In my experience weather it is winter or spring when my fish or others fish start showing those signs it has always reviled a problem.
Was not always a chemistry problem but it did reveal something was up.

I would also add that Because your tanks are above ground not deep and small there will be very little temp change from top to bottom.
I could be wrong on this

Getting a exstablished filter will help a lot good call

Ruben
 
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Here is a little info on the Seachem Ammonia alert card from their website:


Description

Ammonia Alert® is an innovative color device for continuously detecting and monitoring toxic free ammonia. A sensor changes reversibly from yellow to green to blue, relative to the ammonia concentration. No test kits, chemicals, or procedures are needed. The device detects less than 0.05 mg/L (ppm) free ammonia and alerts you to the #1 killer before any sign of stress. It lasts over a year. Marine or freshwater use.

In the absence of free ammonia the unit will assume a yellow or faint yellow-green color. It is normal for the dry sensor to have a greenish hue. It may take up to a few days for a dry sensor to equilibrate with the water. No sampling of water, chemicals, or test procedures are required. The presence of the free ammonia is detectable continuously with a response time of about 15 minutes. Response to decreasing ammonia is slower, requiring about 4 hours to go from TOXIC to SAFE on removal of ammonia.

Ammonia Alert® lasts over 9 times as long as competing products (over a year compared to 4-6 weeks). Ammonia Alert® is also almost half the size of competing products (1.5" x 2.5"). It's small, clear, and unobtrusive, so it won't detract from the view of your aquarium.

Interpretation
As little as 0.02 mg/L of free ammonia will produce a greenish hue on the detector surface. This corresponds to a total ammonia (both ionized and free ammonia) of 0.25 mg/L in marine water at pH 8.3. In freshwater at pH 7.0, this corresponds to 3.6 mg/L total ammonia. Free ammonia is much more toxic than ionized ammonia. As free ammonia, the ALERT color corresponds to about 0.05 mg/L, ALARM to about 0.2 mg/L, and TOXIC to about 0.5 mg/L. The ALERT concentration is tolerated for several days, ALARM for a few days, and TOXIC is rapidly harmful. For emergency ammonia removal, treat with AmGuard™. This product is not recommended for use at acid pH.

Care
No care is required beyond removing algae with a clean, soft material. Avoid touching the sensor with fingers, since skin oils can damage it. Do not use bleach, soap, detergents or hard objects to clean the sensor. Some dye medications may discolor the sensor. Sensitivity improves with age, provided the unit is not allowed to dry out, however, drying does not permanently impair the unit. For maximum sensitivity, the unit should be read under natural daylight or daylight simulating light. Red enhancing light minimizes green and blue hues, decreasing the apparent sensitivity of the unit. The response of the unit may be checked by holding it briefly over the mouth of an ammonia bottle: color should develop rapidly.

And one of the Q&A answers:

Q: I have another test kit that showed positive for ammonia but the Ammonia Alert never changed color. Is it still good?
A: Most likely the other test kit was testing for total ammonia. Total ammonia includes both free (NH3) and ionic (NH4+) ammonia. The Ammonia Alert only measure free ammonia because that is the harmful form. Ionic ammonia cannot harm your fish. However, as pH rises, a greater and greater percentage of the total ammonia will be converted from ionic ammonia to free ammonia, so knowledge of total ammonia is also important.


I find these cards extremely helpful especially when starting up a new tank or in some of my smaller betta tanks that I need to keep a close eye on for ammonia.

This is all I have to add at this time as I have not read through the entire thread (sorry, very busy) I hope it helps :)
 
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tested the new water yesterday, ammonia close to zero for both tanks, however the pH rose from 7.0 to 7.4

should I have any concerns or test for anything else?
 

Ruben Miranda

I am so confused
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Hello
Out that is good news about the ammonia (clapping)
Keep testing and watch for nitites

The ph numbers look good unless the keep getting higher but if they stay stable and don't rise and fall dramaticly you should be good.

Do you know what your ph is out of your tap or well is ?

I bet your new babies are happy :)

Ruben
 
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tested the new water yesterday, ammonia close to zero for both tanks, however the pH rose from 7.0 to 7.4

should I have any concerns or test for anything else?

When you say new water, are you referring to a totally new setup?
If so, then you won't have any ammonia readings until some organic matter starts decomposing or you add some ammonia yourself.
Have you been able to find any starter bacteria?

It would help if you could include a few pictures from your overall setup.
I'm a bit confused as to what's going on...;)

.
 
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just checked pH and it's now 7.6, also ammonia is 0.2 after 3 days. I have 2 fresh setups, 75 and 40 gallons. Filled with tap water then after one day added Prime and a startup mix. After a few hours, added fish into each tank one at a time across 2 hours. No original water was retained. I'm going to add the filters this week.

WP_20161218_19_49_15_Pro.jpg
 

Meyer Jordan

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just checked pH and it's now 7.6, also ammonia is 0.2 after 3 days. I have 2 fresh setups, 75 and 40 gallons. Filled with tap water then after one day added Prime and a startup mix. After a few hours, added fish into each tank one at a time across 2 hours. No original water was retained. I'm going to add the filters this week.

View attachment 96576

Bacterial start-up will have absolutely no effect if biofilters are not in place when fish are added. Each day without biofiltration is one more day it will take before any significant biofilm formation can occur. A dangerous game.
 

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