Could this be carp pox !!

Discussion in 'Illness and Disease' started by Willo, Sep 10, 2014.

  1. Willo

    Willo

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    Manage to catch my fish at last got a few issues.......
    1st pics are what look like whitish-clear lumps on the tail and start of the body. Looking in my books this looks like carp pox ?? there’s no lumps anywhere else only tail end of the fish. Fish is eating ok and has lots of energy (took ages to catch it).
    Anyone got any ideas ??
    Other pics are of the mouth on another koi, i dont know if it’s been banged or if it’s an infection, books say it could be mouth rot ??? there’s a sml what looks like a lump on the top lip and bottom lip looks swollen and its feels rough to touch it ?? Again fish feeding ok and swimming no probs ?? I was just going to coat it in propolis ??
    Any ideas thanks :)
     

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    Last edited: Sep 10, 2014
    Willo, Sep 10, 2014
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  2. Willo

    callingcolleen1 mad hatter

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    My thought is he bit something nasty like a wasp floating on the water and then the sting made him go "mental" and then he swam around freaked out and fast, banging his tail in the process. I think he should recover and you should avoid catching him and banging him further. The stress of catching him combined with his injuries can damage him further...
     
    callingcolleen1, Sep 10, 2014
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  3. Willo

    Willo

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    Ive been to my local koi shop and showed him the pics he thinks that it is carp pox and it wont harm the koi ?. And he thinks the other koi has banged its self because of the redness around the mouth.
    He recomended i do a anti fungus & bacteria treatment it will help with the mouth issues and kill other bugs as well.
     
    Willo, Sep 10, 2014
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  4. Willo

    sissy sissy

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    I added the slime coat stress stuff when I was redoing my pond so they would be safe and sound in the handling and stress they went through .I added the 1 that says + on it because it has aloe in it
     
    sissy, Sep 10, 2014
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  5. Willo

    bettasngoldfish Maria

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    With the redness in the tail the first thing I would check is water quality. Ammonia or nitrite can cause this to happen.
     
    bettasngoldfish, Sep 10, 2014
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  6. Willo

    Willo

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    Ive done a water check everything ok
     
    Willo, Sep 10, 2014
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  7. Willo

    Dave 54

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    Whats the temperature of your water at the moment Willo because yes this is definately koi pox , I think your dealer is wrong on the damage to the mouth and suspect it to be part of the same virus .
    We had one like this many years ago where the carp pox took over it's mouth rendering the koi unable to eat , its not very often you see this be aware however Willo that it can completely take over the mouth if it remains unchecked by the koi's body's immune system .
    Sadly it was no longer able too eat so we euthanized it :cry:
    However what are all the bloody red areas Willo you've not tried to remove any of it or is that due to bad netting of the koi leading to stress by it being caught if so you have the wrong net for the job ?

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2014
    Dave 54, Sep 10, 2014
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  8. Willo

    Willo

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    I guess you mean water temp at night ? I'll have a look tonight. The red areas were already there before I netted it that's why I wanted to catch it to have a look. Ive started a 5 day Course of anti fungus & bacteria which treats fin rot, mouth rot & fungus. Fish is swimming ok ive seen it eatin algea of the sides, I'll keep a good eye on it. :(:(
     
    Willo, Sep 11, 2014
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  9. Willo

    Dave 54

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    If the mouth area is as I think it is Willo then its carp pox and your not going to be able to treat it .
    The thing that makes me think it is is if you look on the top lip in the three mouth shots you posted you'll see what looks to be the waxy growth we see in koi pox remember its could be to do with the immune systems response to this virus that will either cure or not .
    However treat your koi by all means

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 12, 2014
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  10. Willo

    Dave 54

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    Willo both Val and I have taken a long hard look at your photo's again we are thnking your koi may have an internal bacterial infction i;e indicated by the reddening of the fins .
    We further think that this koi is having a bad auto immune response to the Koi pox virus causing all the growths .
    Which means that the so called damage to the mouth diagnones the dealer gave you, is infact wide of the mark here.
    Our reasoning you can clearly see pox both in the middle of the lower lip of your koi and also if you look to the top right hand corner of the upper jaw along with other growths (one forming over the right nostril there are other growths further up on the koi's head too) .
    You can treat medicated food to combat the bacterial infection I think NTLabs do a medicated feed but the koi pox you can do little about just hope the immune response is strong enougth to beat the virus but as weve already said it my be one that gets taken over especially in the mouth .
    If thats the case the outlook is bleak to say the least :cry:

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2014
    Dave 54, Sep 12, 2014
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  11. Willo

    Willo

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    Hi Dave
    Thanks for the comments (y) but the pics are of two separate fish the 1st pics of the tail are definitely carp pox. And the fish with the bad mouth when I caught it I check it over and didnt see any other problems, defo no carp pox. If is an infection hopefully the anti fungus & bacteria treatment im doing will help. I am feeding Quenti koi japan mix at the moment which has prebiotics & probiotics and ive been adding propolis to this food as well. The fish seems to be feeding ok it ate quite a bit of food tonight, well it was happy till I added the treatment and turned the water a lovely shade of green :yuck: (y)
    Cheers Dave & Val :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2014
    Willo, Sep 12, 2014
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  12. Willo

    Dave 54

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    Pox.jpg

    M'mmm first time I've used photo shop anyways if you look at the circled areas Willo you will see that there is evidence of koi pox on your koi's mouth parts .
    Note the upper lip thats is definately rounded and waxy in appearance koi pox can appear anywhere on the koi including the mouth
    They will feel rough to the touch simply because the mouth of a koi is used to touch feel and grasp anything it thinks may be a tasty morsal to eat.
    The danger is is that because of the continual grubbing grubbing the area of pox on the lower lip will start to spread and eventually end up taking over the lower part of the mouth entirely.:(
    If this were an infection dont you think it would be showing up as bright red in colour, look at the part nearest to you that is where the pox been knocked off whilst the koi has been feeding ?
    Not always but it can end up going growing into into your koi's mouth and growing into the surounding tissue thus becoming so large that your koi will be unable to eat anymore.
    Which is exactly what happened to one of our own many moons ago, so as such Willo this isn't a wild guess its more from personal experiance of one of our koi coming down with this.:cry:
    Others end up with massive growths that are rather unsightly but are still able to eat, now the interesting thing about these type growths is they take on the colouration of the surrounding area which is what your seeing with the bottom lip.....
    May I ask why your going back to the Queni Japanese mix when you were feeding Wheatgerm and Garlic ?


    Dave

    Do you have the Interpet Manual of Fish Health by Dr Chris Andrews Adrian Exell and Dr Neville Carrrington ISBN 1842860674 , if so go to page 117
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2014
    Dave 54, Sep 13, 2014
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  13. Willo

    Willo

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    Hi Dave
    Ok I see what your saying, my poor fish :( I'll have to keep a good eye on it. And if it gets to bad......:cry::cry: he'll go to the big pond in the sky.
    Ive not started feeding wheat germ & garlic yet only bought some last week.
    Ive got the Interpet Manual of koi Health by Keith Holmes & Tony Pitman its a good book.
    Thanks for your advice Dave :)
     
    Willo, Sep 13, 2014
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  14. Willo

    Dave 54

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    Great news Willo , why not buy others over time :happy:
    However dont be like Val and I in your reading and collecting as our Library is bursting at the seams so to say :)
    I had a brilliant book arrive today called IFish Deases an Introduction ISBN 9788791319433 by K Buchmann though not about koi it dos cover all the diseases that afflict them .
    I'd keep a good eye on this koi Willo especially over this winter hopefully the virus will abate, we might get lucky who knows .

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 14, 2014
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  15. Willo

    Dave 54

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    Willo it gets worse I'm affraid , and your going to have to be the expert on hand to tell me what is happening if this growth continues .
    What we are looking for is any blood coming from the deformaty on the lower lip .
    If this starts to happen then its a whole new kettle of fish pardon the pun, as a blood supply will indicate that this is a tumor and sadly it will take over the whole of the lower lip .
    I've just been talking to a dear friend about your problem who runs the only goldfish and koi rescue service currently here in the UK , I've known her for over 4 years now and any advice she gives me I have great trust in .
    Sorry to be a bearer of bad news all I can suggest is you take good care of it , and make sure that it has a comfortable life :(

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Oct 8, 2014
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  16. Willo

    Willo

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    Hi Dave
    Thanks for getting in touch, ive been working far to hard :( and trying to sort a wedding out...........stress.....:facepalm:

    Ive been keeping an eye on the fish and have defo not seen any blood, the lump on the top lip is still there but havnt got a proper look at the lower lip. I tried to catch the fish a few days ago to have a proper look but it was to fast and i didnt want to stress all the fish out trying for to long. Its eating food of the surface like all the others and is still grazing on algea.
    Thanks for the advice I`ll try and get a proper look over the weekend as any algea has now died off and blocked my filters up......!!:mad: on the plus side the water is now crystal clear :)

    Cheers
    Willo
     
    Willo, Oct 10, 2014
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  17. Willo

    Dave 54

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    Great news willo when you get a good look at that lower lip it may be an idea to chart any growth take a photo every six months or so and compare them to the original photo you posted if it is active you'll see some theres growth if not things should hopefully stay the same .
    Tumor can be funny old things a the best of times but then at least you'll have a record to look back on :happy:

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Oct 29, 2014
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  18. Willo

    fishin4cars True friends just call me Larkin Moderator

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    Dave, what do you think about adding heat if it can be done? carp pox is usually seen more when water temps are low, if the fish could be kept in water say 70-75 degrees maybe even a little higher do you think that it might retreat the pox so that a medication might help on the secondary infection? (I am thinking and agreeing with you and Val's thinking it could be bacterial and possibly internal.)
     
    fishin4cars, Oct 29, 2014
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  19. Willo

    Dave 54

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    Larkin Koi pox can go hand in hand with papillomas which are both would you believe it viral by nature however they have a low level of infection with maybe just one koi in your pond catching it .
    Koi are the chief in their own recovery seemingly growing out of papillomas as the get older.
    This infection is primarily around the fins on the leading edges
    Koi pox as you have correctly stated is temperature related which allows the koi to mount an immune responce to the infection by an increase in water temperature of around 10c is normally sufficient but take care when implementing the treatment say 1c every two days .
    Papillomas equally respond to warmer water but at an even higher temperature of 24-25c again care must be taken when implementing this treatment too however they may present themselves as a redish pink tumor,these need to be taken off by surgery from a veteranerian
    Many koi keepers basically tend to let it run its course through the winter months letting mother nature do the heating up of the pond .
    In all our 27 years eve only ever seen one koi that has had OTT infection giving it problems with ridding itself of koi pox.
    It our young friend Matt's Matsuba which had the pox from nose to tail so sad it was a beautiful koi too but even in summer he still had it on this koi we think it had auto immune problem.
    Some time ago now a number of dealerships in the UK did a trial with a treatment you painted on to the koi pox and it supposedly made them fall off but we waited for the results in the BKKS and sadly nothing more was heard of this treatment so we can only surmise it was a big flop :(
    As to secondary infections that shouldnt be a problem sadly in willo's case the problem on the bottom lip may have a blood supply and its a tumor hence her keeping a very close weather eye on it in future , as they have been known to get so large that the koi needs to be euthanized .
    An internal tumor koi seem to handle quite well living with it for years before becomes a huge problem our Shusui has one on her right rear side we first noticed it four years ago now and shes happy as larry at the moment but if it starts to grow in size and compromises her then we'll do right by her putting her painlessly to sleep.


    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Oct 29, 2014
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  20. Willo

    Dave 54

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    I think today I've come across what has to be the weirdest koi pox case I have ever come across unless it isnt pox I admit both Val and I at first thought tumor, but my friend Lee who first asked Val and I to look into it gives us this history :-

    The koi has this what looks to be a pink fleshy growth on its side which in the summer months doesnt exist on his koi , but as the temperature drops to that of 10c and bellow then regular as clockwork out pops this pinky growth however this is were things get weird this pinky looking growth is the only thing that grows , unlike normal koi pox which as we all know grows all over the koi .
    My other thought would be that of Papillomas but its growing in the wrong place to be that nor when you really look at it does it look like normal pox
    Do we have any takers Meyer Perhaps you may have come across something like this before but to be honest after 27 years in this hobby I'd have thought I'd have come across it before now


    Lee's koi.jpg

    PM'd you about it on the off chance my friend
    Dave
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2014
    Dave 54, Nov 4, 2014
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