Creeping jenn

[MitchM]

I'm thinking specifically of Thiobacillus and Beggiatoa.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I'm thinking specifically of Thiobacillus and Beggiatoa.

Correct. Those are the bacteria that re-oxidize H2S into sulfate. Some of these will in turn be re-oxidized back into H2S. This continues until all of the sulfide is reduced. Like other aspects of the bio-chemical aquatic processes, this is greatly influenced by not only Oxygen levels (or lack of) but also temperature and pH.

 

[crsublette]

Partially true. The Benthos in a marine environment are able to penetrate deeper into the benthic layer allowing H2S to escape as it is formed at non-toxic levels, this then is usually reoxidized into sulfate In fresh water systems. H2S is mostly trapped. H2S is not oxidized by bacteria, it is the oxidant of Sulfur and the metabolic end product of certain bacteria and archaea. It also may be re-oxidized into Sulfate.

Correct. Those are the bacteria that re-oxidize H2S into sulfate. Some of these will in turn be re-oxidized back into H2S. This continues until all of the sulfide is reduced. Like other aspects of the bio-chemical aquatic processes, this is greatly influenced by not only Oxygen levels (or lack of) but also temperature and pH.

Yep, that's basically how I understood the process, as I learned from Randy Holmes-Farley's reef articles... http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/rhf/

... from what I understand... when a water dam breaks, one major reason the sudden rush of water kills, or dramatically injures, much of the aquatic wildlife and ecosytem is due to massive disturbance of all that sediment suddenly stirred up along with releasing all sorts of H2S and other toxic heavy metals...


Major aquatic kills by H2S bubbles, such as the event I mentioned previously from NASA, is a quite natural event. ...

A quick google brings up articles talking about it happening in freshwater environments as well...

 

[MitchM]

...
Major aquatic kills by H2S bubbles, such as the event I mentioned previously from NASA, is a quite natural event. ...

A quick google brings up articles talking about it happening in freshwater environments as well...

I think what that shows is that any filter system can become overwhelmed.
In the case of our ponds, it may be the entire system, in the case of larger bodies of water, you can see local occurrences.

We get back to the fact that the best practice is to not overwhelm the filter system in the first place.

.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I think what that shows is that any filter system can become overwhelmed.
In the case of our ponds, it may be the entire system, in the case of larger bodies of water, you can see local occurrences.

We get back to the fact that the best practice is to not overwhelm the filter system in the first place.

.

Am I missing something?

How does the level of filtration correlate to H2S?

 

[MitchM]

Am I missing something?

How does the level of filtration correlate to H2S?

When I say filtration, I'm referring to all aspects of what it takes to maintain high water quality; mechanical and biochemical filtration, adequate water circulation and oxygenation.
The filtration can take the form of external removal (mechanical filters that require cleaning or plant pruning and removal) or processing of the waste within a substrate.
I consider bacteria, plants and fungi to be part of the filtration system.

If the filtration is overloaded, organic matter will decompose in an anaerobic environment instead of an aerobic one and as a consequence pockets of H2S can form and be released into the water column in sudden harmful amounts.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

.

 

[crsublette]

Am I missing something?

How does the level of filtration correlate to H2S?

Organic mineralization in lower oxygen environment = H2S .... which eventually "bubbles" out of the ground once it overcomes the microbes and sediment layers, as is described happening in that article I mentioned and occurs in many other areas quite naturally...

..much of the time in response to human pollution, but not always...

 

[crsublette]

When I say filtration, I'm referring to all aspects of what it takes to maintain high water quality; mechanical and biochemical filtration, adequate water circulation and oxygenation.
The filtration can take the form of external removal (mechanical filters that require cleaning or plant pruning and removal) or processing of the waste within a substrate.
I consider bacteria, plants and fungi to be part of the filtration system.

If the filtration is overloaded, organic matter will decompose in an anaerobic environment instead of an aerobic one and as a consequence pockets of H2S can form and be released into the water column in sudden harmful amounts.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

.

Exactly...

"Filtration" can be many things including the "externally introduced controls" such as the increase care taken to intentionally not have too many fish, to not overfeed, to not place plant trimmings back into the pond, to not have rain water run off pollution into the pond, etc etc etc...


... I think reef and planted aquaria are the two most robust "natural" ecosystem aquatic hobbies that exist yet they still express the concern of H2S... The concern is just a fact... Does not bother them since they know how to still have it without causing issues.... but it is a reality..

They just do not view it with an unnecessary exaggerated sense of concern...

...which I hate to admit (once upon a time) I subscribed to the unnecessary exaggerated sense of concern in the past as I was still learning... which the learning process never ends for anyone...


Now, I take more the view of "natural" proponents in the reef/planted aquaria hobbyists regarding H2S... sure, not something that should be ignored, but, as long as proper measures can be taken in not allow organic matter to get out of hand, then no worries. Reading Dr. Barr (at his Barr Report forum) helped quite a bit in this transitioning for me.

 

[crsublette]

@MitchM , yeah, the bad thing about internet forums... They keep all of your posts FOREVER!! ... hahah.... which is fine... I'm a big boy that can take the punches for accepting responsibility and consequences of my words and actions...

...but... when I look at some of my past posts from 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago... ugh... I shake my head at my self... heck, I am still correcting myself!! ... which I think proves a person to be healthy, that is able to accept correction...

Keeps a fella humble to learn not to be so pious about this stuff....

(( which I think anyone can easily become quite pious about issues they are passionate about, which is why allowing passion to be the primary motivator that drives ya can become dangerous ))

 

[Meyer Jordan]

When I say filtration, I'm referring to all aspects of what it takes to maintain high water quality; mechanical and biochemical filtration, adequate water circulation and oxygenation.
The filtration can take the form of external removal (mechanical filters that require cleaning or plant pruning and removal) or processing of the waste within a substrate.
I consider bacteria, plants and fungi to be part of the filtration system.

If the filtration is overloaded, organic matter will decompose in an anaerobic environment instead of an aerobic one and as a consequence pockets of H2S can form and be released into the water column in sudden harmful amounts.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

.

You are correct if sediment/detritus/mulm, whatever one chooses to label it reaches a depth of at least 4 - 6 inches and is fairly compacted. Anaerobic conditions will not occur in sediment layers of less depth than this. For sediment in a Garden pond to accumulate to a depth of greater than 4 - 6 inches and also be compact would require gross negligence and absolutely no maintenance for a prolonged period of time.
You keep aquariums. Shallow Sand Beds and Deep Sand Beds are very much in use with no issues.

 

[crsublette]

You are correct if sediment/detritus/mulm, whatever one chooses to label it reaches a depth of at least 4 - 6 inches and is fairly compacted. Anaerobic conditions will not occur in sediment layers of less depth than this. For sediment in a Garden pond to accumulate to a depth of greater than 4 - 6 inches and also be compact would require gross negligence and absolutely no maintenance for a prolonged period of time.

I don't know about that... I would need to read a reference that verifies "only 4~6 inches and fairly compact" and "takes a prolonged period of time" for significant H2S to occur so to become harmful to fish...


... If my water pump is turned off for too long... the biofilm in the pipe quickly goes anaerobic and creates all sorts of H2S... which ya know it when ya smell it...

...in my pond's stream, just small piles of organics easily go anaerobic... I know this due to I occasionally spray down my stream...


I am not saying this is enough H2S to harm the fish.... just saying that does not take much for anaerobic conditions to occur to create a good amount of H2S....

 

[crsublette]

...editing for clarity of my previous post is done now...

 

[MitchM]

You are correct if sediment/detritus/mulm, whatever one chooses to label it reaches a depth of at least 4 - 6 inches and is fairly compacted. Anaerobic conditions will not occur in sediment layers of less depth than this. For sediment in a Garden pond to accumulate to a depth of greater than 4 - 6 inches and also be compact would require gross negligence and absolutely no maintenance for a prolonged period of time.
You keep aquariums. Shallow Sand Beds and Deep Sand Beds are very much in use with no issues.

Right. If we wanted to make a stagnant body of water, I'm sure we could.
- but with some knowledge and a good design, I think a healthy pond is within reach of any of us.

Marine dsb setups are a little more difficult because of the limited availability of organisms to populate the sandbed, the sandbed materials are not readily available and startup feeding is tricky.

.

 

[crsublette]

Marine dsb setups are a little more difficult because of the limited availability of organisms to populate the sandbed, the sandbed materials are not readily available and startup feeding is tricky..

...and... reef/plant aquaria also don't recommend people to dig around in their substrate disturbing that "black layer" due to H2S concerns actually harming their fish... They don't disturb this layer so they don't have problems...

...but they are quite aware that there is a concern.... so don't unnecessarily disturb the layers if folk take this approach..


@MitchM , I think there is much truth about availability of organisms... not everyone has access to all of the organisms they need...

In farming, this is talked about in context of phosphate solubilizing bacteria... different aggriculture areas, due to area's climate conditions, have more troubles solubilizing phosphate than other areas... this is a growing area of research in agriculture due to the desire to become more "organic".. Very interesting stuff.

 

[MitchM]

...and... reef/plant aquaria also don't recommend people to dig around in their substrate disturbing that "black layer" due to H2S concerns actually harming their fish... They don't disturb this layer so they don't have problems...

...but they are quite aware that there is a concern.... so don't unnecessarily disturb the layers if folk take this approach..


@MitchM , I think there is much truth about availability of organisms... not everyone has access to all of the organisms they need...

In farming, this is talked about in context of phosphate solubilizing bacteria... different aggriculture areas, due to area's climate conditions, have more troubles solubilizing phosphate than other areas... this is a growing area of research in agriculture due to the desire to become more "organic".. Very interesting stuff.

To give one example of the difficulty in obtaining organisms for a complete marine dsb, there is an amphipod, Rhepoxynius abronius, that requires a sand grain size of 0.113 mm. Not 0.110 mm, not 0.115 mm, but 0.113 mm.

Setting up and maintaining a freshwater substrate is much simpler.
Plus being able to have a wide selection of rooted submerged plants is nice too.

.